Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Nick Evans: Removing the Burden of Outcome
What if performance starts with belonging, not tactics? We sit down with Nick Evans—All Black fly-half turned Harlequins attack coach—to unpack how culture, clarity, and a few well-chosen words can change the way a team competes under pressure. From honoring ancestry to owning identity, Nick shows why connection is the foundation that makes hard conversations possible and results sustainable.
We trace his journey from player to coach, including the painful lesson of a 28-slide attack deck that put half the room to sleep—and the pivot to short, sharp meetings that land one idea and get the squad back on the field. Nick breaks down the identity pillars that fueled Harlequins’ resurgence—tempo, ruthless standards, unpredictability, and enjoyment—and explains Conor O’Shea’s radical act of leadership: telling players the result was his responsibility so they could play with freedom. We dig into personalization, balancing detail for different minds, and why shape should create chances rather than cage instincts.
You’ll also hear practical tools any team can steal: interactive video reviews that build rugby IQ and leadership, match-day “no waffle” comms inspired by air traffic control, and a crisp “combat chat” glossary—like “next job” for reset and “60” for an instant energy lift. Threaded through it all is a mental model that keeps coaches and players moving forward: learn it or affirm it. Capture the lesson or the win, then let it go.
If you care about coaching culture, player development, and turning pressure into clarity, this conversation will give you frameworks you can use this week. Subscribe, share with a coaching friend, and leave a review telling us your team’s one-word cue.
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
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No one's bigger than the Jersey. We're all just custodians of it. Connor O'Shea came in and he just took the burden of the result and the outcome away from us. And he really tapped back into that ancestry of what it meant to be a quince. It's funny, you don't, you don't you don't socialise as much when you you're there there off in the playing department, you have a new team, you know, you're a new coaching team. So there's no point trying to be someone I'm not or trying to copy someone else coaching-wise, or you know what I mean? I remember one of my first as an attack coach, the first games. I this is quite embarrassing to say, I had a 28 slide presentation on plays. And oh my god. And I think it was got I've got about three quarters of the way through. And it's like it was literally just the X's, like X's nose everywhere. And I was just like, and I I just thought I was just like, what am I doing?
SPEAKER_01:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Nick Evans. Nick has had quite the remarkable rugby career, super rugby in New Zealand with the Blues and the Highlanders, a fly half for the All Blacks before moving to Harlequins in the UK, playing 208 games for the club. He then transitioned naturally into coaching in 2017, has been attack coach for Harlequins ever since. 18 years at the Harlequins Club, and has the rare distinction of winning the premiership as both a player and a coach. Outside of that, he's also been England's national side attack coach. Nick Evans, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Cheers, man, mate, mate. Awesome to have me. Really humbled to be on, mate, and um looking forward to the chat.
SPEAKER_01:Love it, mate. Now, what the question we'd love to start with, mate, is how do you define culture?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like awesome question. Um I think it's two words for me. Um I've I've I'm pretty keen on like the belonging and connection is is really important for me around culture. I think um for me the belonging is is the individual piece uh piece. I think it's a you know a place where you feel you feel valued, um, kind of whatever role you play in the environment. Um I think you know and understand the environment, the identity and the values, the standards that are set by the leaders, uh, and the ability to get out of your uh get that out of yourself. And I think belonging, belonging comes in a different ways, and I think people kind of attach themselves uh and get the best out of themselves in different ways. For me, for me, it's all about ancestry. Um maybe that's my New Zealand and being part of New Zealand, coming through, like understanding what it means to be an all-black. Um, you know, you learn, I mean, I got my all black jersey from Sebrian Lahore. Um, you know, you learn about Dave Gallagher, you know, Kiwis, we didn't have um heroes, you know, we didn't have the big uh army guys leading people into armies, um, you know, royalty or anything like that. Like the our heroes were were the all blacks, you know. You you grew up watching the all blacks, you put your jersey on after your game in the morning. And so learning about Dave Gallagher and and and kind of the sacrifice that he made would really resonated with me. So same thing for me at when I came to Harlequins, um I felt to get the best out of myself, I had to know the ancestry and and kind of what I was representing and what I was doing it for. So um, you know, like understanding Adrian's stoop, why it's called the stoop, you know, why he decided to to cut a team in half and go a different way. I waiver wakefield left the Windlards to come down and and and bring an edge to the stoop, you know, like a guy like Ronnie Polston, you know, a lot of people wouldn't even know, like, you know, he he he stayed with a kid on the night of an English um English test match because he was sick, you know, and came down the next day. Like, why would he do that and then come to Quinn's, you know, have you know, Con O'Shea, Jason Nennett, Andre Voss, you know, these guys that lived and breathed Harlequins, the legends, like understanding that and what the club was about was really important. And um, so I think like that's how I got belonging. I think that's kind of how you get a belonging. I think then you get the connection. So then belonging then leads to connection. The connection for me is the people piece. And I think you get the different stories of people in the environment and respecting and acknowledging that. And I think that's when you understand the different drivers, and then then you can align to to the connection of the club and the environment, the identity, the values, the standards, and the vision. And I think then you get the performer. And so the two words for me around culture are belonging and connection. I think then you get the performance, and I think then once you once you kind of have that, then you can have those performance conversations and the challenges around performance and and what you're doing, what you need and and and how we can really drive things going forward. So I try and although it might not sound simple, like that that kind of belonging and connection is really important to me around culture.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love how you mentioned like belonging and connection equals the performance and performance conversations you can have, right? So those two things gotta come first in order to have those more harder performance-based con conversations.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think I think it's it probably a lot of people have said it before, it's the the the peep person first, isn't it? It's the it's it's the people, it's the person and understanding um, you know, we we all had different drivers, um, you know, naturally, you know, people do it for money, they do it for self-pride, their family, fame, whatever. It's it's all really important. Um, but understanding that person and understanding the if you can get that connection within that group and connection between people, and then understanding the belonging, why are you here? Like what what do you want to like I'm I'm really like what drives me is like I'm I'm in the sun at the moment at Quinn's, you know, like I was in the sun at the moment, the All Blacks, and you know, it was a big obviously learning from that. And but the people in the past have laid the foundations for me to be here and for me, like to get the best out of myself, I'm I'm almost re repaying them, you know. Like I want to be, I want to move back into the when it's my time to go and and be remembered as as someone that really contributed to the to the club and and helped um help the club to where it is. And it doesn't always necessarily mean you, you know, success all the time, you don't, and you know, that's that's that's it's not viable all the time. So it's always ups and downs. And you know, at Quinn's at the moment, we're going through a real tough period, and um, but that belonging and connection for me keeps me here to drive and want to get better and under you know, I fully understand the club. I know what it is to be a Harlequin, I know the ancestry, I know the the culture within that, um, and that that can help me help you kind of drive through these tough periods and and then obviously, you know, hopefully that you come out the end of it and you you get that success.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Has it been a when you came to Quinn's, did you is it was a real conscious thing? Did you really say, I I I need to know what I'm representing, I need to go out. And how'd you do it? Did you like study? Or did you or did you or was was it sort of you learned it because everyone was telling you? Or or did you actively go out and say, What is this all about?
SPEAKER_00:A bit of a bit of both, mate. So I'd I'd I'd I definitely when I decided to leave, because it was a tough decision to leave New Zealand, um, you know, leaving leaving the Orblicks and and and leaving leaving where I'd I'd grown up and and and kind of played my rugby. So I wanted to go to a club that really aligned to me, uh aligned to the way I saw the game, aligned to kind of how I felt uh the game should be played. So there were a few options. I mean, I could have gone to Cardiff, nearly went to Leicester, you know, a couple of opportunities there, but but but Dean Richards and uh Colin Osborne really sold the club at Quinn's to me around a young, ambitious side um that wanted to to play a different game to what had been been playing up up in the UK at the time. Um I've w when I arrived and and signed, it was I actually did my MCL in my first game, and it was probably the best thing for me. I kind of I I although it was bad, I kind of sat back and I kind of watched and I thought, you know, like I can really see what my role in this team is, and it would have been easy for me to just go, right, nah, I'm the big man, you know, all black coming over, and you know, I want this to be like this. And I thought, actually, man, like we've got a young kid, Danny Kier, who was who's like, mate, he's unbelievable. And you can see he was just he epitomised kind of what this club was about. And I said, Mate, this guy's got to have free license. So if I can just organise around him and make sure, you know, things are I do my role, this kid can just just play, uh, and then we'll just play off the back of it. And um, I kind of quickly knew that that that that that was my spot on the team, that that's what the team needed me to be, not what I demanded on the team, what I needed the team, what the team needed me to be. And and and I think we kind of had a group that that wanted to be that. And I think then obviously we had Bloodgate. So then that that kind of popped the balloon a little bit. So that that kind of was like, oh man, that's that's pretty tough. But we had this nucleus of a really good squad that that, as I said, had a lot of belonging, a lot of connection. And then we had Connor O'Shea come in, um, and he just took the burden of the result and the outcome away from us. Um, and he really tapped back into that ancestry of um of what it meant to be a quince. And that's probably where I I I probably tapped into that a little bit more personally and just thought, right, like I need to really understand what what this is all about and who who who I'm kind of representing and what's gone in the past. And um yeah, I felt that kind of got the best out of me. And you know, we drip fed uh um kind of drip fed that into the group and um and and and we kind of had a real successful period for a time there.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I love it, mate. Uh well it it's uh there's a couple of things in there which I love that you said like you you're referencing things like Bloodgate, but the ups and downs. And when you think back to what you're representing in the history and the ancestry, it keeps you sort of level, right? Like it keeps you understanding this is just a bit of a cycle, right? Like the ups and downs you talked about at present. It's not the the greatest, you know, moment for Harlequins, but when you keep thinking about this history, it keeps you on track, it keeps you going, going, this is what we're representing, keep on going, keep on pushing, right? It's it's like that link to the past keeps you going forward a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:100%. I think um, you know, it's uh the old saying, you know, no no one's bigger than the club Jersey, you know, no one's bigger than the jersey. We're all just custodians of it. And whether it's me with the whistle or the boys in the in the um in the jersey that are playing it, or the physios that are doing the you know, the the great work in the physios and the all logistics, all kind of whatever it is, kit man and everything. Um the the the club is this long line of of of identity and and culture and um th those people who've kind of paved the way and set the foundations of that. And it's it's funny, like belonging is really, really quick, you can quickly quickly lose it as an individual. There's a lot of things that can, you know, break that belonging um that you have to a club. Um, so especially if you don't reference it, like um I think something that that that that's a little bit of a trap that you can fall into is um you can kind of not negate the past because there is an argument to say you you look back on the past all the time, and it's not like you're looking back on just specific games or things like that, but I think just referencing and understanding that you know who's coming in. And I I know we used to do a thing around, I know a lot of clubs do it with young players that they have to go away when they come in the academy and go away and and learn about you know a few of the older players and and what they've done in the past and you know, present to the group and things like that, just little things like that. I I think just keep that that belonging and connection to a to a to a club and and that that club's identity.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, mate, that's so true. Don't negate the past because it it's it's rich in you, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I think you can um it's uh a fascinating point even for like outside of uh the rugby field, like in your own history. I certainly know when I discovered what my grandparents had done, you know, like when you heard about a family ancestry, it sort of makes you a little bit proud about oh wow, that my my great grandfather was this, and you're like, wow, I wonder how that's shaped me along the way, and then you sort of feel connected to this sort of l ancestry, and you sort of you realize your part in it is just a piece in the chain, and and it's it's humbling and it's powerful.
SPEAKER_00:Hmm. 100%. I think it's it's it's uh whether it's right or wrong. I think like I always found like when when I came up here, I I did it in New Zealand as well, was like I kind of live almost live the live the culture, the belonging and the connection. Like my family does it as well. Like you know, we we live quinns, like I I think we get the best out of ourselves when we we just go all in. Um and I think when you get that belonging and connection, you know, the the the kids love the love the club, um, you know, like and they've they've they've grown up with that. Um, you know, and it allows me to get the best out of myself, and that's probably a sacrifice a family has with someone that you know that we've been in that, we've been in this job, it's it's it could be taxing, it can be, you know, the highs are so high and the lows can be so low. And it's not just you who feel it, your family feels it as well. And but I think if they've got a bit of belonging and connection to the club as well, I think like it certainly helps when you're navigating those those tough periods.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, bringing people in. Now, and another one, mate, you just said, which I actually love, and I think the listeners of this will be interested in the statement you said about Connor Ashe. He said when he came in, he took away the burden of outcome for us. Oh, that's a that's a powerful statement, mate. How how did he take away the burden of outcome for a team as a coach?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so so Connor came in. Um, as I said, we we'd gone through that tough period with Bloodgate. Um, the year after was was a pretty tough period uh period, but we had a really good nucleus group, you know, really connected, connected group, good young group together, some some really good players. Um and he he he came in and as I said, like he he tapped back uh tapped back, sorry, to to what the club was about, obviously the days of stoop and why he went away to play a high tempo game from from what was happening around um England. So he he really tapped into the back and he and he kind of came up with this kind of true which was around like tempo, ruthless, unpredictable, and enjoyment. Um and so that's basically what our I identity came. Um and and so we we just looked and reviewed our games and played and trained around right, how do we get tempo into the game, be ruthless around our standards, be unpredictable, um and and enjoy the fact that we're doing that. Um within that, he he just took as like boys, if we're gonna train this way and you're gonna play this way, then you have to transfer that onto the field. Do not worry about the result. Like, like the result is on me. But if we say what we're gonna do and we train it, and then we go out there and we put that onto the field, man. I've I've got no worries about the result. If we go, don't put that onto the field, then then I'm gonna have an issue. Um and I think that kind of resonated with a young group is like take away the mistake focus, take away, look, it's not that you know, the ruthless part of it was that we, you know, we we our standards were good, um, you know, our knowledge was good, our skill execution, like we were pushing it. But if we didn't transfer what we were doing and said we were going to do onto the field, we'd be we'd be given one. But um, when we did, the result, he didn't care about the result, and it just kind of empowered us, it just empowered us to kind of lead, lead that culture, lead that identity, lead what we wanted to do, um, and and put that onto the field, um, with just having that that kind of weight off your shoulders a little bit. Because sometimes, you know what it's like, um, young players, especially young guys coming through, like, oh, I don't want to make a mistake, I don't want to be seen to be make a mistake, is do I push that pass or is that pass the right option? Or is that offload the one? Have I earned it or can I throw it? Is that the one? Is you know, that's the moment that can win you a game, you know, and um so or is that the tackle, you know, like is that the moment where I really go in, or do I just want to chop for the tackle stats? So uh yeah, so he he he he really he really he really took that away, uh took that off us, and um it certainly just it took that burden of expectation off us a little bit, and we were really free, free to go out there and um and and kind of play to what we were.
SPEAKER_01:Man, that's so good, man. I like I just love that phrase. There as a coach, as a head coach, saying, Team, the result is on me. You don't have to worry about that. He took away that sort of burden of expectation, he took that weight off your shoulders, gave you freedom and empowerment, took away. Man, that's that's a cool coaching thing, because you're right, mate. It does put a lot of pressure on. Like, and ultimately one person, uh like one player can't really influence the outcome. So don't worry about that. You just focus on doing enjoying yourself and doing your job well and and it's not easy. It's not easy.
SPEAKER_00:It's not easy because you you you you you you know you lose a few games um, you know, and you start going, jeep, is this is this is this what we're doing, you know, yeah, and you have those cops, but if you've got that belonging connection, I think, and if you've got that that environment where you can have those conversations and and um have that performance conversation and go, right, is this is this are we doubling down on this? Are we still doing this? This was the reason why, because it's easy to get clouded by the result. You'd be really reactive. Uh, you know, the last thing that's happened is the last thing that's in your mind. So um you go, you know, that's that's just the end of the game and the result. But actually, look, for 80% of the time, boys, we did we said what we were gonna do. We either got beaten by the better on the or uh by a better team on that day, which hey, that that's happened, we can hold your hands up. Or actually, boys, for 20% of the game, we didn't say we were gonna do that. We we shut up shot. Well, what we're doing, like you know, we didn't sit we said we're gonna do that and we did this. Like, there's your learning. Um, right, bang, park that, let's go, let's go, let's go back out and train and and and get ready for the next one and and things like that. So, you know, he was he was he was really good with that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That that comment you said just about being c your mind being clouded by the result. You know, that is a coaching thing, right? Like, how does that manifest for for you? Is it still a factor you're you're a long time into coaching now? Is it still do you still have to work against that kind of cloudy mind because you lost a game?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Like, I I'm I'm more than happy to say that like it's still I'm not, you know, it's I'm not down the road of the Grand Henries and all that kind of stuff, man. I'm still still a young coach, I reckon. So I I still sometimes you're like, man, like we had that. And then then you, you know, especially when you're after the game, you're like, you know, you have that kind of hot debrief and you're just like this and this and that, and then you you look back on the game and you're like, man, we actually did some really good stuff. And you you start picking out these things, and then you go, nah, that, you know, we s the standards of that, that's not the standards, right? This is the one we need to go hard at, and this is what it is. So I I I think it's um I think it's really important that we uh, especially as a coach, is is you've got to be able to pick apart those those little things and and have those conversations with the the the leadership group and the senior players and and and get really clear on what what what then you drive. Because this we honest, you know, you've got a day and a half to to get get over it and then we're into it again. And it probably it probab it probably goes into my um you know, you know, like my kind of the way I kind of think of things is is like I don't want to be like I I think to myself, like I don't want to be too self-judgmental, like you know, we we're always gonna make mistakes and you know it doesn't go away from like you know being perfectionists, we want to drive and be the best, but man, like as coaches and players, we can be so judgmental on ourselves. Um it's like right, how do we, how how can we, how can we just learn it or affirm it? I kind of say to myself, is like whatever situation I'm in, whatever kind of the you know, from a tech point of view or from a player point of view, when I was playing was like, man, like I'm human, I'm gonna make mistakes, like I want to be the best, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have good games, I'm gonna have bad things, that games, I'm gonna coach well, I'm gonna coach poorly at times, I'm gonna be a good dad, I'm gonna be a bad dad sometimes. But I either gonna, whatever happens is like I just learn it, and then whatever the learning point is, bang, move on, or I affirm it. Affirm it is like, yeah, that's good, man. Give myself a little pat on the back, but then boom, just move forward. It takes away that overthinking, that overthinking of the result a little bit, you know. Like I th I found that really useful for me around just being able to move, move on and move forward.
SPEAKER_01:Learn it or affirm it? What a great statement, mate. Fuck out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's actually a nice one just to say to yourself, Well, what am I learning here or what am I affirming here?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. It stops that overthinking. I I f you know, like I think we're in an age now where like it seems you know, you you know when I you and I played, mate, we just we it was just kind of go out there and just get it felt like it was just get stuck in it. I can't I think there's a bit of detail. There was but now there's so much detail around the game, which is great, you know, players need detail. I I do get that, but um you know it it it kind of for me promotes a lot of overthinking. There's so much things you have to go through, overthinking. You want to take that freedom out as like, right, go out there. Like I remember like I obviously worked with Adam Jones and um he he had a great saying, he it was actually a mistake when he said it because he you put it up on the board, it was like if you think you're dead, but he missed a commer in there, and so it was basically if you think you're dead. And so it was just boys, sometimes like don't think, boys, just go out there and do. And yes, that comes from preparation, yes, that comes from clarity, but you want to get them to the point where man, just go out there and just do. Don't think too much, just go out and do. And and I think then if you could take that kind of uh straight jacket of the result away from them a little bit. Um, I think you get guys that go out there and do, and then you stop that kind of overthinking. And you know, if something goes wrong, man, just learn it. Like learn it. What was the fix? Right, how am I gonna do it? What's my action point during the week? Bang, right, let's go ahead and do it. And if you did something well, don't dwell in it too much because you know what this game can be like. It can it can bring you back down to earth pretty quickly. So just learn it, affirm it, and or affirm it, and then just just move on to the next one.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, I I was actually trying to work out where that comma went in that phrase, mate. So if you think comma, you're dead rather than if you think you're dead. Uh yeah, but it is it is a it was from Maverick.
SPEAKER_00:It was from the Top Gun, wasn't it? That that's where you got it from.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, is it? Is the Top Gun?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, it was a Top Gun quote. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:If you think you're dead. So that so if you don't put the comma in, yeah, you're asking for a low level of intelligence in your team, aren't you? Yeah, yeah. Um but but it is definitely, are you saying like that overthinking thing is it it really works against like it definitely seems like a like you talked about um a more modern trait in that it play younger players coming through are they they seem to be thinking a lot about stuff. I I don't ever remember thinking at all as a player, I just got out there and did, and that was kind of encouraged, but it definitely feels like there's there's more being thrown at young athletes these days and they are coming through head spinning before bodies a lot of the time. Is that you what you're seeing as well?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think so. I think um I think you want to get them, the players to a point, and and it probably you know, as a coach where when you put them on the field that that they have a real clarity in their mind that they go out there and they just execute, you know, that that that's what that's how I felt as a player. You you want to be really free of of any of that, all that kind of detail that's in your head. It's all been done done during the week. And I think that's kind of everywhere, you know, it might be in every walk of life in in terms of industries and things like that, is like when it comes to that that eight-minute game day or whatever that is, is is you you have complete clarity in your role, complete clarity in in the plan. You can just go out and you do, and then obviously you you you're proactive around certain situations, and and then sometimes you have to be reactive around things and problems solve out there on the on the go. And I think I think the overthinking comes um a a little bit around, like I kind of see it at at grass, even at grassroots level, it's probably a a a bit of a thing around a lot of things at lower level rugby at the moment. I think you know, first first fifteen's now seem to be like almost professional outfits these days. It seems to be so structured. I remember like first fifteen's was like if the space was over there, like you just run over there and just attack the space and then you just throw it the other way and things like that. I I watch First 15 now, it's like 1331, it's two, four, two, and the d you know, you can see the defensive systems and and all that kind of stuff, which is great, but it's like it's so structured, it's so detail-oriented. Have we kind of think have we lost that kind of ability just to kind of play, you know, like that kind of free play and play what you see? And yes, and I understand people are going, oh yeah, but you need detail, you know, you need detail, you have to have detail. Um, but I think sometimes it become a it can become a bit of a hiding, a hiding place for people. Um well you you told me you you said don't you said to do that, so yeah, but it's a rugby, there's lots of situations, the space is there, yeah. But you said me to run that line. But you know, walk it your head up, have a look. And you know, like I I don't like to coach robots, like I'm a real principle, principle-based coach. Um, yes, I I I I do love the detail part of it and understand the different types of players and players need detail, but for me, like if if if you're really clear on your principles and what you're doing, I I think you you you get a little bit more freedom and the ability to see space because that's what it's all about, isn't it? Like I'm an attack coach, I want to attack the space, it might be in front of you, it might be out wide, it might be over the top, it might be not obvious space, you know, it might be matchups dependent. How can you just be focusing on those and not worrying too much around like far out, like, oh, you know, is are there three forwards over there or are there forwards over there? You've got lightning cut ball, and then all of a sudden you're like you miss that opportunity, and that's the one where we could have got them. It's like, man, I was just hamstrung by shape there. It's like, man, like I don't yes, shape's important, but it's to create opportunities for us to play fast and go and play. And um, that's that's why we enjoy playing the game, isn't it? Like that's you know, that's why we wanted to play the game. So yeah, it's it's it's hard, it's probably something I wrestle with a bit.
SPEAKER_01:It's actually interesting that you talk about that because some sometimes that over detail, like in coaches, you forget actually why you're coaching it. What what what's the point of putting this leg up forward uh instead of that one? Well, it doesn't actually matter. The theory is it helps you get line speed to make that tackle or whatever. If you're doing that anyway, does it matter? And if you like that that's something which Steve Hansen taught me when I was with him, is he just said, Why are we worrying about this detail if they're already doing what we want and that they're doing it's just a little bit of something which is bogging them down. They now have to think, oh, I've got to put that leg forward. Where they were doing what was required anyway. We just added in a a little checklist which was irrelevant. And he he sort of I remember him scrapping a lot of stuff and just saying, too much, too much. Less is sometimes more for clarity. And I remember as a player, like some of my my most freeing games was when I I the coach said, You need to be here. It's like, how do you get there? And he's like, I don't know, you just gotta get there. And I was like, Okay. And that that was the clarity I need, is just the season said, as long as you're there, you're right. So just get there. It it wasn't like you need to put this for 45 degrees and you need to run with this, and this is the run. And it didn't bog me down with any sort of stress. It was just just get there. And wow, that was clear in my head. And as a coach, sometimes that's the balance you've got to find, isn't it? What your players really respond to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and and again, I think that coming coming back to the the people and the person is is uh sorry, the the person and the performer is understanding kind of who needs the detail and who doesn't need the detail. Yeah, we're classic example uh uh at at Quinn's we've got, you know, uh, you know, two firehouse, Jared Evans and and Marcus, both love detail. Marcus is very kind of play what you see. Jared loves, loves, loves a bit of detail, which is great. You know, you should give him the detail. We have great conversations around the game and the shape and things like that. Two two fantastic players do brilliantly for us um and and see the game a little bit differently. Um so it's it's understanding who needs a little bit more of that, who needs a little bit more of the freedom. Who, as a young, young, um, young fella coming through, um, you you know, you you you kind of mix and match in a little bit, you go, oh, you give them a little bit of detail, you can see him get bogged down with it, a little bit. Actually, man, just go and hit someone, you know. Like all I need you to do is carry, man. You're you're a carrier for us. Find a carrier, you're gonna do it this way. Um, right, a little bit of review there, a little bit of step here, right? You're leading with the ball on this one, just transfer a little transfer on this one here. Don't don't get too upset about it and um and let them kind of find their way a little bit. So yeah, no, it's uh it's a good challenge. It's it's fun. That's that's kind of the fun part of fun part of coaching a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, man. It's cool to see in the same team. You've got like that that difference of personality in the same position. It's it's bloody awesome. And talking about that team, mate, you've been at Harlequins a a long time now, 17 years. Mate, what's kept you there? Like what what is what is what's what's the what what's what is it about the place, mate, which you just have fallen in love with and and kept you there for a huge amount of time, especially in the modern era, mate. Like that is a long time to be at at the one club, which it's a thing of the past in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, 100%. I think um I was speaking to a few people the other day about it. Like there's a you you kind of see, you know, they're talking about the a lot of people now just doing two, three years and going somewhere else, and there's an uh kind of excitement, and and that's kind of seems to be the way things are going a little bit. I th I think it just comes back to what you spoke about before is is um because of I immersed myself into the club and and um you know got a real sense of belonging and connection to the club um and had success. Um I I kind of I was I'm quite a loyal person. I'm I'm quite a loyal person when it came to that. And um I I think I really understood like what my role was in there and and and plus like we had a real good team, you know. My playing part of it was was 10 years as um with a fantastic team and you know, you had offers to go other places, but you know, the the the connection with the the lads that I had there, certainly you know, back in you know when we won the league for the first time and a few years after that, we probably should have been a little bit better. But um and then I transitioned to coaching and um again like you know, when you win the league again in in 2021, and um, you know, it's it's that kind of validation, it's kind of a firm, isn't it? It's like for a little pat on the back and go, nah man, I'm doing some good stuff here. And and then, you know, we go through a tough, a tough patch, and it's like, man, I can I I still have this belonging to the club and I wanna I I understand what it is, I I fully understand and I understand what it takes and I understand the culture and the connection within it, and I I think I can help with that and and move that out. Um yeah, it's it's it's a good question. Like it's it's it's one of those things where we we spoke about a little bit before, you you you come trapped, but not in a but in a good way. Um, you know, it's uh it's the my family's my family's here. But yeah, we'll see, we'll we'll see, kind of see how we go. I I don't think I'll be here for a lot of seven years, but uh we'll see how we go.
SPEAKER_01:Try try and get the uh the 20 year you get a plaque at 20 years, don't you? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what you get these days, mate. Yeah, you don't get yeah, we'll see.
SPEAKER_01:Um and it's really interesting too, because you've transitioned from playing with a group of uh athletes to then instantly coaching them. How's that transition been? Has it been tough or has it been seamless for you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was um it was it was tough. And I it was probably tough because I put I I put the pressure on myself a little bit. Um I'd kinda I I'd w my last two years of playing, I I I coached at Wimbledon uh in the National 2. So I I did a little bit of coaching there, uh became head coach in the second year, and I felt it was a really good kind of breeding ground to make make a few mistakes, you know, because I didn't really understand like when people talk about coaching philosophy and what are your coaching principles, and I was like, man, what's what's all this kind of stuff? And my first year I still didn't really understand that, but yet I was here, I was kind of coaching, you know, like your Danny Cares, uh and James, James Horwell, you know, Mike Brown's of the world and things like that. So it was a bit like jeepers, here we go. Um I think I think because I was I've always been I like to think I was born to be pretty authentic. Um, that what I probably didn't see was the respect that they had for me, and and therefore I I kind of knew that like if I just be myself, there's no point trying to be someone I'm not or trying to copy someone else coaching-wise, or or you know what I mean? You it's easy to kind of mimic a few people and and to go, oh well, I know that, so I'll just do that and and see what we do. Yes, you pick up little things, but and I I so I think that kind of helped me. Like, I had a really good respect from the players, and um I was really, really kind of authentic in myself, and um, I think that probably allowed me to to have that kind of relationship uh in a different way, and I think that's pretty important, is the the relationship does change. Um, and I think I I made a conscious effort of you know, some Danny Kerr is a really good mate of mine. I played 10 years with him. We had an unbelievable connection as a nine and ten for 10 years, and um the relationship does change a little bit. We're still we're fantastic mates. Um, but it as a as a coach to a player, you it's funny you don't you don't because you don't socialise as much when you you're there there off in the playing department, you have a new team, you know, you're you're a new coaching team. So, and it probably didn't affect me too much for my personality, but certainly, you know, my family who would you socialise with their family, now you probably don't do that as much because and and I think that's an interesting dynamic as well, because you know, you probably just keep your boundaries a little bit from that. So it's uh yeah, it was it was a it was a funny time for a little bit, but um it certainly I think being authentic in who I am and what I was about and what I kind of believed in certainly made it a lot easier.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that it was an interesting statement that you make about the families having to just naturally separate it a little bit too. That's that's something you don't you don't think about, right? But uh you can't have those free conversations about what you probably did as as both players and players' families.
SPEAKER_00:But now it's yeah, fascinating. Yeah, it is, you know, you you'd you'd hang out as players and players wives with the players' wives and things like that as a player, but then you know, coach as coaches, you kind of just it's um you're still around. It's not like you completely separate, but it just changes, it naturally changes over the period. And it's funny now that a lot of those guys have moved on, like now we've kind of probably got back closer. Uh now that they've kind of left the club and doing other things, you come back closer and you you know, you you you you probably spend a lot more time together um now that that that that they're they're away from the club. So um that's been really good to do to do that as well, you know, guys that you played 10-12 years with, won the first premiership with, um, to to catch up with them a little bit more away um away now from the club is is is brilliant.
SPEAKER_01:No, that's yeah, we're always evolving, aren't we? Like going through the different cycles of life and stages of life and things like that. That that's cool. Now, mate, you you talked about your philosophy, mate, and then you didn't have didn't have one at the start. Do you have has that slowly started to grow in you? Have you got a bit of an outline of a philosophy these days?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think so. I think um you kind of you kind of learn, you learn from kind of the experiences that and the coaches that you come with. Um and certainly when I was when I was young, like I was, you know, we had um we had a few coaches come in, and it's probably one of the things that it's our environment probably why we we haven't done well. So in the last we've had five head coaches in the last kind of six years. So we've had a lot of like people come in and you pick up little things around it, and certainly I I kind of mould myself from being a real relationship coach. Um and I probably learned that a lot of that from like having guys like obviously Smithy, like Wayne Smith in the All Blacks was was someone who really for me kind of epitomized that kind of person first and then the performer. Um and so he was he was one that that that that that I certainly learned a lot from and and still have a real good relationship with and and talked to him around, and then obviously he was the detail guy as well. We had Tabs, Tab I Manson, again, you know, learning him around relationships, you know, how you know he operated around um bringing people together and the connection piece. Connor was a big a big part of that as well. Uh and I think certainly those goes guys kind of reaffirm my point is like, man, if I'm gonna be the best coach, is like I I have a real kind of relationship foundation with players first and uh around the person. And so that's kind of what that's what I try and do. And I think you you naturally have different relationships with different people. Um it's not always gonna be the same with everyone, um, but it's kind of you know, making sure that it's the person first before we get down to the the performance. And I always try and try and make sure that I that I do that from a from a coaching point of view, and then then the game is just kind of how I see the game is is is it's always been around that kind of true mindset for me around right, I want us I want us to play with tempo, I want to want us to be unbelievably ruthless around our standards and and what we're trying to achieve. I want us to be unpredictable, I want defense coaches to not know where we're what we're coming up with next, you know. Are they doing this? Are they gonna attack here? Are they gonna kick it? Are they gonna set peace? Um, and for me, if you get those three right, man, you'll enjoy the game.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love it. Mate, relationship coach. That that's that's just a cool statement in itself. That's that's what you face yourself for. You're a relationship coach. It's uh it yeah, that's really cool, mate. And how does five head coaches in in six years disrupt like an organization? Is it's just the consistency is not there? Is that is that the issue with it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, I I think so. I think um it probably it aligns to different ways of seeing the game um as opposed to what what the club is about. Um I think we've probably fallen into the trap a little bit around having people that probably don't align to to the to the DNA and the identity of the club. Um and therefore you it's it's it's mixed messages a little bit. Uh and I think you just you just get an inconsistent way of seeing the game. Um and so and look, I I'll I'll probably part of that as well, you know, like not being able to, as an assistant coach, you can only have so much influence around that that kind of stuff. But um when we get it right, we get it right. Um and it's it's kind of shown in the past that we that we can get it right. It's just um we probably just haven't been able to nail that down as much as we can um in the last few years. And yeah, hopefully we uh you know we can we can rectify that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, mate, it's it's it's it's fascinating, mate. It's fascinating. Like it's not to say it's right or wrong, it's just different ways of doing it, right? Like, and it just if you have too much difference all the time, it doesn't create one steady way of doing things. 100%. Now, mate, what in terms of you know your own coaching and things, like it has it been smooth or have you had mistakes along the way which you've had some massive learnings from that um you're prepared to share with with the crew here today?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I think like what I um probably the biggest thing like was the kind of coaching for self-validation, like coaching for what I think the players needed. Um and the the best example I can probably give of that was like I remember one of my first as an attack coach, the first games. I this is quite embarrassing to say, I had a 28 slide presentation on plays. And like, oh my god. And I think I was got I got about three quarters of the way through, and it's like it was literally just the X's, like X's nose everywhere. And I was just like, and I and I was just like, I was just like, what am I doing? Like, what am I doing? I was I could just like look at I'm looking at the lads and like half of them are asleep, half of them looking out the window, and I was just like, this is like I was purely doing this for ticking the boxes of what I thought that they need, well kind of what I thought I needed, or as so I thought that they would need what I would want to have. And I would just remember afterwards going, I am never doing that again. Like I like this is not how, like, this is not how it can be. So um, yeah, like I I think like it's it's probably one of the traps I think um I I see some of the coaches, young coaches like I I catch up with a little bit is is almost thinking that the players see the game or or see what you see or or know what you know or need to know what you know. It's it's it's understanding in that moment now what like what what what is the simple simplicity or the simplistic way to get your message across. I think you you had Brownie on, he said it the best way. I think he was like, it's gotta be simple to understand, it's gotta be all clear to understand, it's gotta be simple to deliver, it's gotta be challenging to to train, and then hopefully, you know. it goes out there and um you can execute that on the on the weekends. Um I think I learned that I learned that pretty early on that that was yeah me standing up there for half an hour going through 28 slides and then showing I don't know 14 clips of of other things is not the way to do things. So um yeah I learned that I learned that pretty uh pretty quickly.
SPEAKER_01:What would you do now, mate?
SPEAKER_00:Would you just show 27 just and tone it down my head I'm I'm like I'm watching them and things like that and it's like but it and and again it's it's kind of how society's moving and things, you know, like it's it's like meetings are are massively important and it's we all want to show you know show like so much information to these players and how much information is too much information. And um you know it's the old thing you know like uh human um interaction or attention you know after 10 minutes drops by you know like like you know 40-50% or something like that. So you know the the longer you're in there like you know the the the the less that that is going in. So I think it's an understanding both ways of like we're doing the work you know we've seen the clips and it's like right we're I'm gonna show you one clip lads like you know the I've seen this a lot this is one clip you have to be this is this is what we're going after boom these are the two points that we're on and then we then we go again because you know it's like man I if I asked you tell me tell me what you learned well tell me one of the things that at half time when you were playing that a coach said at half time you wouldn't be able to like no one knows so it's like it's just like what's the what's the really simplistic way that we could do it. So I think like I've I've I've learned having having we spoke before around that um opportunity I had in Japan around using a translator you know I couldn't I can't you know I speak fast as a kiwi anyway but you know like I had to really slow down and really be really clear and really concise with what I was saying or else the he he couldn't catch up.
SPEAKER_01:He didn't know what he was saying and then so the Japanese are like what like and so it was really it was interesting to learn that I love that mate that you've gone from 28 down to one and and and that that that just when you've only got one thing it's pretty clear what you're doing isn't it this is what we're doing. And it's yeah that that's what we talked about earlier that like that clarity it doesn't even mean more and more and more to get clear it's sometimes reducing simplifying down sometimes less is actually more clarity just this is what we're doing one thing. Boom.
SPEAKER_00:If you rely on your principles and you can rely on your uh you know your patterns and principles then then then you don't have to add that detail there that's already been installed in pre-season that you know that's all kind of been there because there's there's a time and place for having those big meetings um I'm a big believer that you know there's there are times where they're gonna have to sit there and take in information um but they they can't do that in the middle of the week when you're leading up to a game play when you play Laurish all away you know that's not the time for it it's uh it's it's making sure you you pick the right moments for those mate that that's that's cool. That's a great little observation about yourself mate how you came in that coaching for self-validation yeah where you you think you're doing something for you rather than the team right like it's it's your own ego's taking over is that generally what happens when you start coaching yeah I I I yeah I think so I I I think it was just like I think it was more maybe not so much my e my ego it was just more like as a player I like to I like to see that I like to see that amount of information and maybe it was a 10 you know like you you're a game leader you're a play caller you need uh like I would go through and sit through and look through all of that stuff and look at the clips and myself and and and get all that information in there and so when I was a young coach or when I was first coming out I thought well then everyone would want to see that you know what I mean um but a tight prop a tight hair prop doesn't want to sit there and see 28 slides and me talking about the starter play you know what I mean it's just it just doesn't it so I learnt that really really really early on is is right actually and then now with the way technology is you can send these things out and check for learning and um you know question you know picking up players and things like that and then um and then going out there and you give you all your tacticals and things like that. I think like certainly that's helped uh help that way a little bit more.
SPEAKER_01:It's really it's a really interesting concept isn't it like you talk about like what you wanted and and it's probably not relevant for the tight head prop. And but I think that's probably for all coaches probably what any coach wants is not what a number of the players in the team want.
SPEAKER_00:So as a coach you almost got to pick the things which are the best for the mass isn't it like if you generically go this is what's going to hit most of the people you're almost like a politician what can what can what will be biggest bang for my buck right now what statement can I say that's gonna hit most people would that be a fair fair fair comment as a coach yeah I think so and I think I think if you're aligning that to um your your general plan your general principles around how you're playing the game and or aligning it to a game model you might have a game model on how how you play um in certain areas of the pitch or the the whole field and then then then it becomes really simple and and execute you can go right this week we're targeting here align to this align to that principle align to that that part of the game plan boom that's what we're going after everything else boys is is is our natural game we're we're playing it we've learned in preseason but this week we're just going after that one thing one in D, one an attack, boom, done and then then away go then you can then you just got more time on the field. Then you then you you know you coach on the field which is what you want um you're not sitting in the classroom for um you know half an hour or or 40 minutes going through every kind of little bits of detail um you know the the the the videos are there for all the guys after training to go and have a look you can put things up um you can put uh little challenges and group work together and and things like that make it a bit a little bit more interactive I think that's probably something um we we've we find really valuable for us.
SPEAKER_01:What does that look like?
SPEAKER_00:What what what is that interactive sort of necessary so that might be like um so that might be like uh we we will do it re with reviews um so we'll review certain scenarios and and and get the group to split up and and and look at certain parts of the game and and and get a real collective understanding of of what to do in certain situations. It might be something that's done really well it might be something that that that we've um that we probably didn't nail in the weekend that's cost something. It might be a real kind of like rugby IQ moment. So it's really good for kind of rugby IQ moments I think it's really learning and understanding the game is is is probably something that that that these kids can do can do more and we can do more of um the kind of nuances of the game like right what are you doing like you know yellow cards scenario here what's happened here if we had our time again um we're five points down what does it look like um right go away have a discussion come back you know someone sees the game something different to our other one and I think it's just that collective understanding so when you go through those certain scenarios again you you've got a real collective understanding of like this group's been through that they've seen these kind of pictures before your leaders can then rely on and make a real clear call and and and everyone's based on everyone can basically move forward into that into that scenario. So um I think it's also just mixes up that ability just to sit in front of a screen and watch and have a coach kind of deliver it it it allows them to deliver and and stand up and take a bit more ownership in that in that in that model which is obviously you know have having the courage the players that can get up and do that I think it's a lot more powerful than a coach all the time.
SPEAKER_01:And and this is a really cool one uh Nick because this is uh a very different for a lot of coaches this would be a different way of doing it you show a clip you split into groups and you say okay in your groups if you had your time again what would you do different in this scenario? So one clip and then you split up and show them how much like feedback do you put into that do you do do you want a certain outcome or are you happy to sort of let it be a discussion for a while what what's and w why is that good for players rugby IQ?
SPEAKER_00:I think it's um I I think kind of both ways a little bit there. I think um it was certainly would have been something as a coaches we would have gone and sat through and gone look this is the situation or I mean I don't this is not something we do all the time because I don't think it's sustainable to do it every week and and and um throw it out there all the time um just for pure timing timing scenarios but um we we would have a really clear plan of what what we think needs to be done in this moment and it might even be that we take it to the leadership group and go look this is what we're going to do and then we show the group and it and it's probably just how you build that leadership like that kind of you know you've got your leaders you've got your followers but you want to build these leaders coming through from the these young kids coming through and it's and it's good for them to to go away and kind of see these different scenarios in a game and go, right, if you had a time again split up into groups where you've got a mixture of leadership and you've got a mixture of young kids um and how allow them to facilitate that kind of group group chat and go, what would you do here? Like you know this is a really good situation for us would we do the same again you know what what what what can we learn from this or what can we affirm if you think back to the what we spoke about before is there a learning is there affirming that's really great. I reckon that's we could do that again. That's not what we said we were going to do. Okay and then roll round it off again and and the coach's role within that is just making sure that it doesn't because it's very easy to go that way, that way that way oh I've got that I I can see that you can see that you know you know what's like you put something up there's about a million things you can see and learn from it. I think it's just the coach is there to make sure that we keep it on track and and and keep it kind of getting to where we need it to get to and come out of it with a really clear plan at the end of it. And then the probably most important thing is is if you've got that then to go train it go outside and go outside and train it and put it into action.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I this is a really cool a really different way of like like just you almost have become a facilitator and then a summariser of the outcome to make sure that there's one clear path from all these discussions which have helped facil facilitate essentially that's cool mate that's really cool and mate what I enjoy about it too is like this is you're kind of creating a little bit of a space where you know players can actually speak up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah they're actually practicing speaking up they're practicing challenging ideas um aren't you like this is part of yeah that kind of concept it which is a more modern way of coaching compared to 25 years ago right yeah 100% I think um as I said it's probably not something you do all the time but it certainly gives an uh a a space and environment where um you want to build these young leaders you want to build uh your next generation of of leadership that's coming through I think um we all know how important leaders are when you know in terms of driving that environment or driving the culture that that that's been set from the top down. So um you know we're forever trying to find ways that we can we can do that and there's lots of different ways you can do it but that's certainly one way around the the game when they can they transfer the learning from that type of situation onto the training pitch into the game and and and I think we've we've seen some really good really really good benefits benefits out of that. How else have you grown your leaders I think I think a lot of a lot of that stuff when we've done it really well is has come out of um uh a lot of the kind of C PD stuff that we do around the place uh we've got a really good welfare manager and welfare welfare kind of uh support network that uh that that that gets a lot of these hopefully a lot of these young kids um and we can always do more around this but out into different different environments learning from different people having a lot of a lot of people coming in um and and sharing stories and and and taking little workshops and things like that so I think it's really important to I think that's a that's a it's a f kind of a fascinating part. Like I I remember when I was coming through the Orblicks did that really well um Gilbert was really good around creating an environment with people coming in and and talking to talking to people and and making sure you're really clear on your roles and responsibilities and how can you influence how influence the group was I was you know obviously Dan Carter was there so I was on the bench a lot so my role around the bench how do I influence the game? How do I influence the game from a leadership point of view when I came on being a 10 that came on you know in the back end of the game you know whether we had to win the game or whether we were most of the time we're probably 30 40 points up but how do I still influence the game from a leadership point of view so yeah so like I I we did we did lots of work around uh around that kind of stuff. So um yeah it's it's uh it's it's it's it's good it's it's it's not solely a coach's job I think it's an environmental job uh in terms of these leadership lead how you develop these young leaders uh we as coaches have got a a big role in terms of winning on a match day and and and and you know that setting that week up and and getting the best out of that but in the background it's having that ability and that that kind of environment where you know help help these young guys coming through so when that next that top group moves on and the old the older guys move on for whatever reason um there's a there's a bit of a seamless kind of transition there for those young kids those young kids to slip into that I actually like that kind of concept mate just like bringing people in to to chat and discuss things just that little bit of exposure is a different way of doing things like r rugby itself lends itself to um different things because it's quite a it's got a lot in it as a game.
SPEAKER_01:There's there's structure, there's chaos, there's a there's sort of everything and like a lot of different um leadership styles from a lot of different um environments can actually have can impact really strongly right on the on athletes playing rugby.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah 100% I think one of the is a little one is a I was a coaching crew we went to um we went to Gatwick and in and l you know we we did a little bit of a communic communication thing around how they how the the air traffic controllers talk to the airplanes and but but around the real simplistic messages that they use and just uh just taking away the waffle because he can't waffle. It was just like really clear this is this is this this is and then just how quiet it was yeah it was it was a fascinating fascinating to go in there and watch them and watch them at work and there's about four or five people in there and there's one person who's just like rolling you know like talking to these planes but just the succinct you know uh messaging that gets through and understanding the roles of of of where these planes are because obviously they get that wrong something pretty catastrophic can happen um the pressure that that that they're kind of under um when little things happen so um l little things like that like getting away I think like is is really important and it could as I said just for a want just broadens the mind.
SPEAKER_01:May I love that like it it's it's so in your face when you like you don't initially think something like an air traffic controller would have relevance to coaching or leadership as as players playing rugby but it does have relevance when you just said it like that like the stresses and strains the no waffle in your chat they're being direct and simplistic and mate that just sort of like exemplifies that learning's everywhere.
SPEAKER_00:You just got to be creative and open and in and plucking it out of you know all sorts of different sources right yeah 100% I think it aligned to us around match day because we spoke about match day around like quite often you can commentate the game on the radio and you know you messages just get you know you you can just send so many messages down especially these days now that the the rules around your kind of water boys getting on is or water girls getting on like it's it's hard to get them on now. So messaging can be really really tough. So finding ways through physios and doctors and things like that. So what you can't do is give you know 14 messages around scrum defensive attack line out and all that kind of stuff it's got to be really clear and succinct and understand um you know it might be a principle based message it might be a you know a little detail around the line and things like that. So I think that that's kind of where it helped us from a coaching point of view up there was like there's no waffling up there. It was just clear succinct they knew the they know the the the the terminology around this around around every plane and things like that. They knew what the words were they knew what like code words were and so that aligned to us around combat chat in a game and you know like what what special words mean around maybe a change in play or or a change in philosophy that we want to go to so we found it we found it really I found it really valuable. I don't know if everyone did but I certainly found it valuable.
SPEAKER_01:I love it mate I'm intrigued about this combat chat like making your own language it just sounds awesome.
SPEAKER_00:Create a combat chat for your group yeah and and again that was something that again Connor brought in um we had a really good um uh team psychologist and and it was something around uh just to invoke an action um within something whether it was uh a mistake or whether it was whether we're under pressure or whether we were um on on on the front foot um and and what what it was was like just being able to take away or almost take the emotion out of what can be a really emotive part of the game um and for the leaders just to because you know you're out there and you know they're they're feeling it they're feeling the the pressure or whatever it is is right if a mistake happens and it might be it was as simple as next job and so whatever whatever if a mistake happened and we're going to all you'd hear was next job and everyone knew what exactly what that meant. It was like right get yourself set take a breath and go whatever the next job is required whether it was defensive scrum line out or or whatever it was that that was it. If we needed to if we needed a uh like a a lift in energy we we used to call 60 um and that that that represented the next 60 seconds is like everyone just a uh a lift in intensity a lift in drive a lift in energy a lift in comms a lift in work rate um and that was done by the leaders if they felt that we needed a bit of a and that was transferred throughout the team and so you didn't need waffle it was just one it was 60 that's all you that that's all you that's all you had to say. So um I think that this certainly helps helped the leaders um in terms of regulating their emotion and and certainly it took away that kind of waffle and emotive language that can just turn into swearing and you know if and work harder and all that kind of stuff it's like it it just gets real clarity and and the whole team just moves forward.
SPEAKER_01:Nick I think that is an absolute gold little piece for for coaches around the world is to actually develop that combat chat. Like you talked on that it evokes an action that reduces waffle and that's awesome mate and probably the best place where you can get that is in those huddles right you've just had a try scored against you like bang you can just say a statement like 60 and everyone understands you don't need to elaborate you don't need to put any detail in that and that's brings it back to that clarity that you you talked about earlier and sometimes less stuff you say is actually way more clear than 28 clips.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah 100% yeah no it it was it was it was really good really good hey Nick it's it's got to that time mate where we've got time for one more question um and that question is this one brother is what what is one belief you have about coaching that you reckon your contemporaries or peers would disagree about um question I think um I I probably referenced it referenced it before um it probably the way I kind of see life maybe is is as opposed to the game as go like I think we are we we put so much pressure on ourselves um as rugby players um and rugby coaches um but I try and be as I said I think I said earlier was as self forgiving as I can be um and it doesn't take away from my drive and a constant want to be the best I can be but I I understand that like I I'm human I'm imperfect um you know like I I try And be the best that I can, but my learn it and affirm it is is the biggest thing that kind of keeps me around that that ability to move forward. Um and maybe coaches agree with that as well, but I think some coaches can be really hard on themselves and they dwell on things and it's some things are out of their control and you know there's put so much pressure because of the outcome. So and I know we're in an outcome player based business, but um I I find that I I try and be as as self-forgiving as as I can and I I try not judge myself too hard on on on so many little things that that that can that can come within the game. The game is so multifaceted, there are a lot of things that can just the bounce of the ball can not go your way. And um, you know, I either learn from it or I affirm what's going on and I and I move forward and I try and try and help the players be able to do that as well.
SPEAKER_01:I I love it, mate. I I think um that's a cool statement. I think it's it's not too much that coaches may not disagree with that, but that they probably a lot wouldn't do it. They wouldn't be self-forgiving like that. I think that's the hard bit, isn't it, to actually to to act on that, to actually move forward and and be self-forgiving, gentle on yourself. That's that's a tough tough thing for a lot of coaches, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think um I think a um I learnt uh I can't remember who said I learnt it is like one of the one of what a a really big skill, a good skill to is is the ability to forget. And that's a really hard thing to to do. Um I think the the I've I've found is like the really good players, as I said, either learn or they they they know what they've done really well, uh and they forget and they just move on, they move forward. Um and I think whether that's in life is the ability to just keep moving forward. Um yes, appreciate the past, but you're learning or you're affirming from the past and just just just keep moving forward.
SPEAKER_01:I heard uh I heard a slightly um more abrasive way of putting that once with three S. It was an effort. Yeah, exactly. Meaning swear it, fuck it, fix it, forget it. Um a very good freaking opening batsman uh said that once to us as a team, and I thought that was really good. The ability to forget at the end. So yeah, you acknowledge bugger it, damn it, I did that, and you go, this is what I'm gonna do to fix it. Now forget it, or else it's locked in.
SPEAKER_00:Love it. Yeah, 100%. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Nick, it's been a pleasure having you on the show. Today, mate, if I may, what I'd love to do is just give you my three takeaways that I took from this conversation with you. Now, mate, number one is don't now uh negate the past. I love when you talked in the opening of this chat about how ancestry is your strength. It creates something to belong to, and it's about belonging and connection, and it keeps you understanding why you're there through the good times and the bad times. So to actually always have a little bit of a look back in the past can be a really good thing for keeping you consistently and steady in what you're doing. Number two, this phrasing, learn it or affirm it, not judging too harshly for too long, and takes away that overthinking aspect. The the quote which we got wrong is if you think, comma, you're dead. And I love that statement. But I love that statement also they said about being self-forgiving. You learn it or you affirm it and you move on. Love that. And number three is this concept of creating a combat chat, a chat which evokes a real simple action, reduces what waffle, and takes emotion out of what can be a really emotional period, something like next job or 60. So everybody knows really quickly what they're required to do. And I think this is a cool concept for all coaches to create a combat chat for your team, whether that's on field, whether that's in an office. So everybody's aligned and doing the same thing. Nick Evans, what an absolute pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast this week. Appreciate it, mate. Thanks for having me.