Felipe Contepomi: When Your Greatest Strength Becomes Your Biggest Flaw

What if passion isn’t the finish line but the fuel—and only excellence keeps the engine from overheating? We sit down with Hall of Famer and Argentina head coach Felipe Contepomi to unpack a coaching philosophy that’s as rigorous as it is human: high standards matched with high support. From Buenos Aires to the global stage, Felipe explains how the Pumas preserve their Latin fire while adopting the precision and discipline that turn emotion into execution.

We trace his journey from captain to coach and the mentors who shaped him—Marcelo Loffreda on turning adversity into opportunity, Michael Cheika on a winning mindset, and Stuart Lancaster and Leo Cullen on elite preparation and people-first leadership. Felipe opens up about unconscious bias in selection, why leaders must make it conscious to stay fair, and how he uses feedback (even anonymous) to hunt blind spots. His rule of thumb is simple: reward effortful errors, reject negligence, and keep your actions aligned with your words.

You’ll hear how Argentina’s club culture powers participation and identity, why a central performance hub helps scattered pros reconnect, and how peer coaching compresses learning time. Felipe’s mantra to “coach live” is a masterclass in practical development: correct the line now, rerun the rep now, reinforce the win now. We dig into talent versus desire, the art of mentoring across decade-wide age gaps, and the belief that rugby is a means—not an end—to teach values like respect, resilience, and accountability.

If you care about team culture, leadership, player development, and sustainable pathways, you’ll find a blueprint here: balance passion with excellence, define standards clearly, and support people to reach them. Listen, share with a coach or teammate who needs this, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway—what standard will you raise this week?

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Transcript

Welcome And Felipe’s Journey

SPEAKER_00 1:06

I think passion can be um strength and you can turn it into a weakness. I I'm not going to compromise my standards, but I'm going to give you all the support I can for you to arrive to those standards. For me, rugby, even at the highest level, it's a mean and not an end. It's a mean. So it's a mean to become a better person, it's a mean to learn values. Talent is very easy to spot. I think you can see talent very easily, but unfortunately, talent brings you to one place. If you don't make it conscious and you don't bring it up front, you will probably be doing unfair decisions with someone.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Flippe Contemp. Flippe is an icon of world rugby inducted into the Rugby Hall of Fame in 2017, having played 15 years for the Argentine national side and a key member of the rise of that team. He's also played for some of Europe's powerhouse teams, Bristol, Leinster, Talon, Start France, winning team trophies and personal awards everywhere. He started his coaching in 2015, having stints with the Jaguares in Leinster, and now, currently, the Pumas head coach, and the Pumas are on fire. 2024 saw them get their best record in the rugby championship, beating each of those sides. Felipe's impact on world rugby has been huge and continues to be. His leadership of the national side is a joy to watch. Outside of the game, Felipe has a medical doctorate, which is amazing considering all the success he has had on field. Joining us on Buenos Aires, Felipe, welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Oh, thank thanks very much. A bit too much that intro, but yeah, thanks very much.

Gut Feel, Bias, And Fair Decisions

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Your career has been actually outstanding. It's actually phenomenal, and sort of your humbleness around it is a testament to you. But often before we start, we were just talking about your journey uh as a as a player, then a coach. And you just made a comment which I think is a really great one to start. You talked about you've been lucky that you've been able to make a lot of great decisions which have been really beneficial for you in your playing and your coaching and your life. Um now I guess the question that uh is a good one to begin with is do you follow your gut when you make these decisions around your journey? Or is there a lot of like analysing and review and things like that? What's the balance between your gut feel and your analytical side to making good decisions about your career?

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Well, I think the more information, and this is in whatever aspect in life, but the more information you have to make a decision, I think the easier the decision will be able to be done. It's a bit of both, but sometimes you come to if I could do a rational decision all the time, it will be easier because you just go on facts and it's easier. But sometimes it's not that it comes to a the rationality, it's not that evident. So you need to have that gut feeling, and and for me the biggest thing is trying to leave apart the emotional part of the decision and make a fair decision. So I always say we human beings, we have an unconscious bias on everything. You have unconscious bias, you know, in like even having kids, you know, sometimes you get better with one and the other. Unfortunately, we have if you don't make it conscious and you don't bring it up front, you will probably be doing unfair decisions with someone, you know. So understanding your unconscious bias and making it conscious, you make better decisions because you you don't let yourself follow your I don't know, your your unconscious bias.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Yeah. Well, I I I'm I love this sort of stuff. What sort of can you share any? Do you have any unconscious biases that you're aware of?

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Oh, we all have. Sometimes we don't even look for them so that you keep doing the same error. But say as a coach, obviously you will have players whom you like more because they are more coachable, because maybe they play the way you feel you played. I don't know. For any reason you like some players more than others. But at the end of the day, when you go on selection, you can't say, oh, because I like him more, I'll select him. You need to be more like, you need to take that unconscious bias of to make a fair selection and to be fair with the players, you know. So, and even if we say, for example, uh we compete and whoever is competes better in the week will play, when you go for selection of the week or of the team of the at the weekend, you need to make sure that if someone competed better than the other one, even if you like it or not, you need to put it because that's the non-written rule that you have in the team, you know. So those and we always deal with unconscious bias.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Do you have any, is that your biggest one? Do you have any specific ones which you've made made aware of yourself that you've tried to make sure you don't have?

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Yeah, but like in life? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yes, obviously. When I go and, for example, I'll tell you one thing. When you go and talk to uh say my my teenagers' daughters or something say, oh, they don't know it because they are young. And that's an unconscious bias because why you you like you need to find out why they don't know it, or maybe you I'm the one wrong. It's not them, you know. So just find out. Don't make it. Don't assump don't make an assumption that because they are young they don't know it.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Maybe they know something better than what I'm what It's very funny as a parent, isn't it, Filippo, when um when your kids say something to you and you're surprised at actually what they know and they've probably known it for years.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

They're just sitting quietly underneath. Which is actually very similar to um the players you coach too, right? Like there's an assumption sometimes, particularly in the lower grades of coaching, that um coach knows everything. Whereas players can actually they're the ones doing it. No matter your expertise, there's always a knowledge in the group that you're coaching, right?

Coaching Different Ages And Peer Mentoring

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Yeah, correct. And that and that's that's where you want to try to get that knowledge transmitted, you know, and and um and I think sometimes we coaches we also make the assumption that they would know some something, and maybe they don't. And we need to go backwards and and sometimes don't take for granted things that they that you think they will know, and sometimes even repeat it. Because also, um, well, when you go to age coaching or more or less if you get an under 9, probably they are at the same level of development. But when you go to a senior uh coaching staff or a team, some guys we might might be 20 years old, some guys 29, 30, and so the guy from 30 years old might have a lot more knowledge, maybe, than a guy from 20 years old. So, but you're coaching all of them, you know. So don't assume that everyone knows the same or or understands the same what you're talking about, you know. So that's that's um personally I make a lot of mistakes in assuming sometimes that I'm talking to someone that already knows something that and maybe I have to teach him or understand it.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Yeah. That's actually a really good point you make with the senior rugby side of things. Like it's a huge age gap, isn't it? 29 to 2020.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Yeah, well, nowadays it's 30 plus or 30 longs to 20. So it's even bigger than that gap.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Yes. Well, it's it's it's like when you think about like the the learning, if you take it back, say 10 years, from a 20-year-old to a 10-year-old, the difference there is obvious. But it's still the same amount of time from 20 to 30, isn't it? So there's still a lot of life learning that you're without.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Yeah, yeah. Especially what some guys they have an experience very young and well they learn quicker, or but some others, you know, it's yeah, it's it's an art there that you you need to see where you can where they are at and how can you transmit and try to put everyone on the same page or at the same level of understanding and learning.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

How how do you go about um coaching the different you know, the different experience levels and things like that? Do you have to go individualized or have you got a bit of a blueprint?

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah, some things, yes, and some others, unfortunately. Uh you say we need to repeat things and for the guys that already heard it ten times, just tell them, well, boys, there's guys that they are hearing this for the first time, you know, and you need to get on with it, or maybe help me and try to bring it on quickly and you can be because the peer coaching is the best one, you know. So if they guys that already heard it 10 times, they can coach inside the team, inside the group. The guys that are just entering the group, it's it will be much quicker and and better.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Yeah. Is is that is that something that you're really big on, like peer coaching, making people, the older ones, the senior ones, the knowledgeable ones, be the coaches?

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah, but sometimes sometimes it's n it gets unnatural, but uh sometimes you need to not force it but guide it so that you have like a mentoring system that you know some older guys can get younger guys and and coach them. Well, in in terms of our team, you know, I I believe a lot in the leadership groups and and and when a leader or or a group of leaders they behave in a certain way, then the other ones just follow and and they they learn by by copying or by seeing or by watching what the environment creates, you know. So and sometimes you need to take them apart and teach them more specifically. But yeah, I think yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Yeah. But well, it it's it's a good point you raise because sometimes the um that concept around peer coachings or having leadership groups just means you go off and do it. But as a coach, as the head coach, you have a responsibility to actually coach those aspects, right? Coach the leadership, coach, mentor ring and how to do that, right? Like it's not just off you go, boys, go do it yourself. Your role is the leader to guide and help those people be the best versions, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah, correct. I I think good leaders create leaders, you know. So it's not about being yourself. It's it's about what you can give to other people and empower our people to be better. And so for me, yeah, I I believe in that, in that way of coaching, in that way of seeing in that in that way of learning. If not, it would I I'd say it would be very easy to stand there, just say something and then assume, oh, it's already learned. It's not like that, you know. Some some guys take someone else to repeat it, some guys will learn it quickly, some guys, and and if you have a good leadership group and and good coaches inside the like peer coaching, if you have good players that act like coaches, it's it's the way, it's the quickest way for a team to get on the same page, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Have you improved as a leader as you've gone?

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Oh yeah, always. I'm I'm still improving. Or I hope so. I I hope so. I don't know. You have to ask someone else. I um at least I'm making the effort always to learn something. Uh yeah, definitely. I think I've been uh in my career, I had positions where I had to act as a leader and and seeing them now retrospectively, I would have act differently, or I I think I could have been much better. So I've learned from experiences, I've learned from reading, I learned from meeting other people, from my own experiences and from other people's experiences.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

What what what are some other have you got an example of one thing that you would do differently as a leader from your past? From my past?

High Standards With High Support

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Yeah. Well, I've been captain of the Argentinian team, and probably when I was when I had to assume the captaincy, it was 08 when a lot of lot of players retired or left the Argentinian team. So young players were coming through. For example, I remember the young players. We have a uh I had a 20 uh 10 10 years gap. And it it was like they they wanted other things. It was the beginning of the social networks, and and with my mates, we used or my age group, we used to stay after dinner long hours talking and chatting. And and this guy, they would stand up and go to their rooms and chat or whatever, you know, on the phone. It was messengers, so it was very old, oh eight. And I couldn't understand them. And and then I realized that they weren't wrong. It was me who was wrong because most of them they were doing so. As a leader, you start understanding that you need to understand what the other ones need if you want to lead. You know, uh, so it's not about you, it's about what the people that you lead need. And when you understand what they need, you can help them to become better and so on. So it took me like two years like being completely like negative in terms of saying, what is happening with these young guys? They don't come, they don't stay, they don't work hard. They and it wasn't that they wasn't, they they work different or they have different things that they like. It's not that they didn't do it, it's they do it differently. And by understanding that, afterwards I became really good friends of them, you know, and I respected them and I and they respected me. But there are things you learn how to do it, uh, sometimes unfortunately by by making errors, but it's not the whole purpose, but you understand that you will make errors and you have to get better at that, you know?

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Yeah. That's really cool, mate. That just that understanding what others need and and having a little bit of empathy to to the difference in people.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yeah. Yeah. But but yeah, empathy and understanding, then everyone, every leader has their own style, you know. I I don't want to be the same leader as the previous couple, or I've got my style, some other spot. But the understanding of whom you lead is I think is crucial.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Understanding of whom you lead. Lover. Lover, mate. What's what's your style? What what do you if you had to sum up? Because I've I've I've had a lot of people, some of your reputation is a couple of things like disciplined, intelligent, composed. Is are those traits that you would say are correct about yourself? Or what what are some of your leadership traits?

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Look, I um I don't know how to describe. I'm I definitely I'm disciplined and I like discipline, but in the good way, you know, discipline with accountability, responsibility. So I would like to think or I'm working to be a leader who will have high standards and high support. So I I'm not going to I try not to compromise my standards, but I'm going to give you all the support I can for you to arrive to those standards. But sometimes it's not easy. It's not easy. And sometimes you can become too or sometimes you can protect too much and don't allow those ones to the people to to reach the correct standards, you know. So I'm still a lear a learning leader in process, you know, but that's that's my aim, like to become a high high standard, high support leader.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

That is a lovely phrase. High standards about high support. Like I think it's often the second half of that is often neglected sometimes. Like having high standards is one thing, but then as the leader, your bigger role is the support to get to those standards, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Yeah. Or sometimes some people they don't put high standards and they want to be to have a nice time, but in high per in high performance, you know, you need the standards. And and sometimes it's like they are very protective, they want to be friends of the players. Like, I don't believe in that, you know. I want to be respected. I have already too many friends to, you know, definitely for me the respect is a is the the main thing. And then maybe you become friends in the in the long term. By the time the head coach and there's a player, I feel respect has to be the mutual, like both sides, you know. And yeah, well, that's my here you are. Probably some people will listen to this and it will be controversial, but that's my my sort of leadership that I like.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

No, I think it's brilliant, mate. I that kind of concept around you said, I don't mind if we're friends in the long term, which I think is a really lovely statement because it's it's similar to parenting, right? Where you don't particularly want to be friends with your children when they're little because you're gonna have to have some hard conversations. You're gonna you're guiding. But what you would do want with your kids is once they are grown up, they look back and go, I loved that my parents did that and they taught me that and they led that and they had high standards and high support around these things because they're important. And in the short term, they won't like that their bedtime's at seven o'clock, but there's a reason for it, and why you're taking screens off them and all that sort of stuff, because that's the standards, and you're teaching along the way. And like in any learning process, it's sometimes not till you look back and reflection, right, and go, I see what he was up to. I see why he was driving like that.

Defining Culture As Daily Behaviors

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And and and the biggest challenge there is to do what you say you want others to do. You know, you can't like if if you ask them not to to have too much and not to watch the iPad or the phone, you can't use the phone on the So yeah, it's yeah, that's the biggest the tough part.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

Yeah, well, that's why you send them to bed at seven o'clock so you can jump on your phone and do it privately. Now, Felipe, the first question we normally ask is this one, which I love your opinion on, is how do you define culture in your teams?

SPEAKER_00 20:21

What a great question. How do I define culture? To put it blunt and simple is what you do every day. Your culture is what you do every day. For me, culture, like obviously when you have a bunch of people, a team is what the team does every day. The behaviors they go through, they walk past every day. That's what creates the culture. And obviously, cultures are not are not rigid, they are flexible. So a good culture can become a bad culture if if you keep repeating bad behaviors or bad habits. And the same the other way around. A bad culture in a team can become a good culture if you change those bad habits into good habits. So for me, culture is what you do every day.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

Do you have any traditions in your teams, which you like to think you do every day?

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah, well, of course, it's more than than traditions because the tradition, the traditions and they add into the culture. They kind of, you know, you can have rituals and that they are part of your culture, but for me, it's more the behaviors. Um if you decide you're going to live like you say you're you want to be uh the you you have these uh values and you want to behave this way, you need to do it then. And that's the culture, you know. When you enter a team and you see that there's competitiveness and there's it's not just written, but they do it, they live it, they that's the culture. So for me, then you have some rituals or or things that that you do as a team, and we have, we have definitely. For us, it's very important. I always say if you enter a place and you see a guy playing Spanish cards, drinking mate, and having an asado, that's Argentinian, you know? So we have our rituals that we or our things that they make us identify us to our country, and and that they say, okay, this is very Argentinian. But the culture itself of a team, it's what you how you behave, how you live every day, you know?

SPEAKER_02 22:27

And and and what what would you like the Argent Argentinian rugby and and the nation as a rule is got a really strong culture, right? It's like from anywhere else in the world, you know, when the when the Puma's in town, there's just this feel to the to the the whole thing. What what is that, mate? What is the what is the culture of the national team?

Passion Versus Excellence In The Pumas

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Yeah, the for me, and this is a personal opinion, there's two things. One is that we have a lot of our players playing around in in different countries. So when you get together, even if it's not in Argentina, you kind of say, okay, let's do this environment, be it like Argentina. So a very Argentinian place, okay? And second, I think it's so so they start embracing those mate and drinking mate together or the chats, the playing cards, and those things. And then the other thing in terms of characteristics, I think we are Latins, and Latin countries, they are very, very passionate in every sense. Now, what we are trying to, and that's why where I say the culture, it's like I think passion can be um strength, and you can turn it into a weakness. It can become a weakness if you go over passionate, you know, like and if you start, yeah, you're you're you're going through emotions, okay? Through the emotions. So for me. The biggest challenge, and for us, and we are trying to create that in terms of our culture, our team, the Pumas is keep that passion, but add or balance it more with the excellence. So with more with detail, excellence, more the Anglo-Sax, I I call it Anglo-Saxon, but more the call it the German, whatever, but more of the counteract of the Latins, you know? That um in Latins you could be it's ill disciplined, while as we started talking, one of my biggest things, I believe a lot in discipline. So it's how can we put in the balance, keep the passion, but lift the the discipline or the Anglo-Saxon way of of of doing things, the excellence. I call it excellence, you know, just aspiring for excellency. So if you can keep both into the in the balance and and bring both the higher standards you can, I think you can achieve good things, you know, big things.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Well, I think that's an awesome that that concept that the passion is a strength, but it's also potentially a weakness, is is something which you don't always refer to. And I think it's awesome that you're open enough to say, let's pull the best bits from other cultures that we potentially need, like the Anglo-Saxon, the German influence, where we need a bit of that. Let's steal that and take that.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Yeah, that's cool. The excellency, you know, and not steal it, like get the best, and but don't become I I still don't want one thing that we have a lot is like we have when we are together, we have good time. We we enjoy our company, we enjoy being together. There's always like friendly, you know, it's so I don't want that to to leave it apart and and just be cold, you know. It's like let's make it that a strength or a point or a point of difference, but let's get the the excellency uh level higher, you know.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

How do you do that? How do you drive excellence? How do you drive high standards and yet still have that enjoyment of the game without ruining it?

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Yeah, well, I I think the high standards in two ways. First of all, you need to sit down and and and set them and say, okay, this is what high standard is for us, this is what is accepted, this is what is not accepted, full stop, you know, and then do it. And that's the difficult part of it. Be coherent on what you say or think with your actions, you know. But for me, the biggest, the most important thing is obviously the the coaches and the staff, they need to held accountant for those standards. But it's the the leadership group that if if they understand they they held that uh they they held accountable for that and they do it, most of the other ones will will understand that these are the standards we we walk through. We don't compromise our standards. And of course, you're always revising or trying to get the higher you can. And but but I think it's it's more like you need you don't have to be afraid of talking, this is this is not accepted. And not this like punish whoever doesn't. They can make an error, but if you take it as a learning opportunity, okay, we get better here, but this is not accepted. Make sense? And that's where the high standard, high support comes, where if someone is not there yet, it's not like, oh, he can't be a high standard player. It's okay, you're not there, but this is what we need and what requires to be, I don't know, in the Pumas. Uh, and I'm going to help you to reach there if you want. You know, you you'll have to make the effort, but I'm going to help you. I'm going to, you make an error, I'm not going to just sacrifice you because you made an error. It's like, okay, how can we get it better? Because this is not the standard we want. We want to go here. It's yeah, it's that the process. But if the leadership group they held accountable and they are accountable for for that, those standards, it's much easier because that's where the peer teaching comes in place, you know? I love it.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

I love it. It has it been challenging helping shift that sort of the passion into the excellence and the detail side, bringing that shift. Is it been challenging for you to do?

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Or yes, it's always challenging. If not, if it's not challenging, it's not worth it, and it's not good enough. I don't I've never seen something easy to to be world-class um level, you know. There's nothing easy in in life to be so good. If it's good, it's challenging for sure. So it is challenging, but for me, it's more of understanding it is a process, you know, and it's not from one day to another. It won't get perfect from one day to another. It will always be in process, and and but you are getting better. And once it's the challenging part is how to convince someone. Once it starts getting rolling, it's easier, you know. But and now the challenge, now that it's rolling, the biggest challenge is that with one bad action or something, it can destroy it straight away. So you need to, it's how you keep aware that you need to keep evolving, you need to keep better, you need to, for the guys that that because now a guy, a young guy that enters the human environment, I think he gets to understand the standards in one week with us. He will, this is what it takes. Maybe it will take him a year to get to those standards. And but and maybe if he's ready or close enough, it will take him two weeks to be to those standards. But it's a but at least now they understand what it is. And it's very important that the leaders they keep driving that standard and we don't compromise on them because that's the way, you know, we've already done a lot of work to throw it all in one minute, you know, throw it away.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

It's fascinating, mate. When you're talking about young players coming in, do you think you can tell now, with your experience, if a player's going to rise to those standards? Do you reckon you've you can go, that player's got it, and they'll get there in time, and that player, I don't think, will? Or do you reckon it's always a wait and see?

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Well, I think it will be very omnipotent to say that yes, that no. So, and and I don't believe I can I have the right to say someone you won't you won't reach there. One thing, yes, I can I can tell talent is very easy to spot. I think you can see talent very easily, and you can say that guy will reach there. But unfortunately, talent brings you to one place. But what makes you stick and stay and and go over that, it's there are other traits that they're not that sometimes there is something that you can't explain or you you can't teach that is the the I I I don't like or well, resilience, but it's not the right word because resilience is very used at the moment, but it's more the effort, being ready to put all the effort you want. And sometimes it's about the passion that someone has for and the desire that they have. If I see someone that wants to improve, I can guarantee he will improve. But it's very hard to improve someone when you don't see his desire inside desire to say he wants to get better, you know? And if someone wants to get better, give me all day that player because I understand he'll get better. It's a it's a journey, it's a process, and you'll enjoy in that process, you know? So yeah, it's very hard to say he'll make it, he'll don't. And I don't think I'm I'm not good to say that, you know, I don't I don't have the real truth. But definitely I can see when someone wants it, really wants it. And I will spend, I will give all my time to people that or players that want to get better. I have no problem. And then talented people, it's obviously it's what you want, you know, but talented without the effort is very hard. Uh for me, it's hard. Obviously, I don't brush them because talented people they are too good to brush those talents. But but it's uh it's the it's the working, you know. When you find talent and and and effort together, is that's uh that's where you say, oh, here we are in business, you know. Because I just love it. The truth is that someone with effort alone, you won't get there either, you know, because you need some to to reach to the highest level, you know, you need at least some talent. It's very hard, just effort. But if you give me one of both, I would say effort will will take you longer than talent by itself.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Yeah. I agree. Love that. Talent is easy to spot, it gets you to one spot, but what makes you stick and stay is that desire to get better. I I think I think that's very true, mate. Now, mate, you you referred to the Argentinian side as a side which is very much spread across the world, like a lot of players play all over the show. When they come back into one camp, and you talked about some of the rituals and traditions you do, off air we were talking about the central base that you had. The Pumas have got a central base now where a lot of the teams go and it's a bit of a hub. How is having one central place really helped grow and shape the team at the moment?

Clubs Booming And The Amateur Engine

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Yeah, the central place it's it's good if you can have it like our biggest problem Pumas-wise, talking about only the the Pumas, is that we have players in Europe, in France, in England, in Italy, in and then you have guys in Australia, one guy in Japan, some guys in Argentina. So it's very hard to get them together that often and for a period of time. What is helping us now here in Argentina is that we have four franchises that they play the Super Rugby, America Super Rugby. And one of them is here. So then, yes, the players you develop in Argentina, the youth, the young players that we call them, that they enter the system that from 16, 17-year-old till 23, yeah, you we have we have a high center of excellency, but then we have five academies throughout the country, and that's where we get get them to come and get the growth and try to polish that uh talent and that that is coming from the clubs. In Argentina, there's uh it's a strange phenomenon that amateur rugby is getting bigger and bigger every year. So clubs are booming. Yeah, some clubs are booming. Like my club in first division, uh first division we have in in adults. Is that Hindu? No, that's Newman. Oh, Newman, yes. But we have 260 players in only in first division. So we have seven, seven, eight teams for first division. So for the adults, and then you have four teams in under 19, maybe three teams in under 17, three teams in under 16, three teams in under 15. So it's booming in in, you know, the amateur rugby, club rugby. And I think we need to make sure that we keep that growing and staying as it is, or or getting better, because at the end of the day, that's where the Pumas will come from. You know, we don't have people coming from other countries to play for the Pumas. We are only Argentinians, so why do you think it's booming?

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Because in other parts of the world, the amateur side of the game is falling off and they're struggling for numbers, and clubs are collapsing. What's your take on why that is?

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Two reasons. One, because it's the way it is. We have a system, our rugby is created through uh clubs. From six-year-old till till you always go to a club. It's not a rugby, it's not a school. Youth, you don't schools play rugby, but not that much. It's you always go to a club. So you have a lot of identity, and the clubs became a social community environment for that person. It's you go at the weekend, you go from since you are six years old till uh later in life, you go to your club and you find your people, and that's that's uh an environment where you feel comfortable. So that's the first thing. Second, I believe Argentinian rugby is uh 20, 25 years behind professionalism. Okay, professionalism changed in 95, and we we started profit real professionalism here with the franchises and so on five, eight years ago, 10 years maybe ago. So I think what happened with when you bring professionalism into a into a country or a place, it becomes very aspirational. And if you don't look after the clubs, young players will come aspirational, and once they don't make it, they leave. And maybe that's what happened in other in other countries. So that's why I'm very eager on saying to our amateur clubs, make sure you keep. We are working on whoever enters the system in the in the war, in the say, in the professional pathway. We work on how for them to become professional and how to go back to the club if they don't become professional. So that they don't leave rugby. Make sense? Because they can be very uh, they are very important people going back to the club. It's like for me, rugby, even at the highest level, is a mean and not an end. It's a mean. So it's a mean to become a better person, it's a mean to learn values, it's a mean to transmit, it's a mean to make friends, it's a mean. So it's not the end. And if we can teach that in amateur clubs that it's a mean and not an end, it's just you will find your place and you'll feel comfortable and you'll always come back to a place where you feel part of, you know, and and you work with no other interest than making the club bigger or better.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Wow, mate, that's uh that's a fascinating insight to that 30 years behind professionalism.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

It's almost like Argentina has sort of they can look ahead to the other countries which went professional 30 years ago and see all the where everyone stumbled and you can actually make those adjustments, and it's lovely to hear that the amateur That's what I say to the people because it's a let's not make the same errors because I'll be gutted if in 30 years' time our clubs start disappear, not disappearing, but they start making the club is not what it is now, you know.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

I'll be gutted because let's not make the same errors or well like certainly that step to support those that don't make it professionally to go back to the clubs is a big one. And I see that in a lot of countries around the world that that's where people drop off. They don't get their aspirations and they leave the game. Whereas what you're saying is they need the support a lot because they have a big influence on how that club develops.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

Yeah, but because that's also the the virtuous circle. They they go, but then they bring their family. So when they have kids, they bring their kids, and that's how the clubs keep getting bigger. If you if you leave the club, well, your kid is hardly will come to that club, might go somewhere else or play another sport, or so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

It's actually a bit of a privilege in a lot of ways that you've got um you've got so many examples as a nation to look at and go, right, there's our future if we go down that route. It's yeah, it's a time time machine. Now, you said something, Felipe, which uh I've got a quote here from you, and it's this you said rugby teaches you how to approach difficult and challenge. And the less lessons in rugby stay with you long after you stop playing. What I I love that, mate. Like, what sort of lessons have you taken away from the game as a person, not just as a as a player or leader or coach, but as a human being?

Rugby As A Means To Teach Values

SPEAKER_00 40:57

No, like I'd say uh a lot, but I'm still taking like because I'm still involved in the game, so I'm I'm still learning all the time things from rugby. And and for me, it's like even the slightly small things, but rugby gives you it's a very it's full of laws and and rules, and you need to respect them and you need to respect the game. So it taught me not to cheat, for example. For me, it's not the same winning at any cost. I need to win doing the right thing, or what I think is the right thing, but not not at any cost, because rugby taught me that. Or maybe not rugby. I think people who were my coaches taught me that you win in the right way, you know? And so I've been lucky in that sense. And I always say, um, this is very controversial, what I'm going to say, but people talk about rugby as uh the values of rugby. And I think the the values are not of rugby, they are of people have values. It's how you rugby is the mean to transmit those values. And it's a wonderful sport because the idiosyncrasy of rugby, you play under any sort of weather, hot weather, raining, snowing. So if I need to teach you like sacrifice or effort, rugby is a great example to teach that. You know, there are some other sports that if it's raining, it's cancelled. If it's uh you can't play, or you play inside uh, I don't know, maybe tennis inside a stadium that or a hut that you you don't you don't climate doesn't you can air condition or put uh heaters and you don't suffer off climate. So rugby itself, it's it's a great sport to transmit values. But it doesn't mean rugby, I've never learned respect because I passed the ball. I've learned respect because a coach told me, mate, you need to respect this, we do this and that. But through through rugby, he taught me respect. But not by catching a ball, you get an effort. You know, it's like, I don't know, it's it's fun either way, I think, but for me, that that's why I say rugby is the mean and not the end, you know. It's like, yeah, at the end of the day, it's all about people.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

No, that is cool. Rugby is the means, not the end. Rugby is the means to transmit good values. Yeah, man. That's so true. And I I like that little point you made. It has a degree of suffering in it, rugby, which uh which helps drive a degree of respect, you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

Like if we don't respect the rules, it could be a 70 by 100 boxing ring with 15 against 15. Because it's a contact sport, a real contact sport that you need to, you know, to respect the the rival, respect the rules, respect how you engage contact. Because if you're disloyal, it's dangerous. And thanks God, we are in a very, I'd say, rugby has done a lot well, rugby, in in making this this game safer and safer, you know, and and I love it that because it's it's still a contact sport. And you need to respect. So you learn respect by someone telling you not to do that, you know, you you will hurt someone. Okay, I can do that. Okay. But it's not about like just by playing rugby.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

When you're talking about this respect, mate, which coaches do you respect for what they've taught you in the game? Like, have you got any examples of some of the best coaches that have helped shape you as a coach?

Coaches Who Shaped Felipe’s Philosophy

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Look, I I've been, I think I've been very, very lucky because I um I came across very good coaches, but also I try to, I'm I'm a person who tries to to see the half, the half uh full glass and not the empty part. So I always take something, I learned every time I learned something from coaches. Even sometimes when I disagree a lot or I didn't like something, something I would won't do when I was uh when I'm a coach, you know, but I've always learned. And in that sense, Argentinians, I've been lucky. I had Marcelo Lofreda, a guy with who who taught me a lot on how to turn an adversity or an adverse uh moment into an opportunity. He touched me a lot, and and it was all like he was very good in that how to overcome adversity. Then I had a Santiago Filan, who was a guy who was, you know, very, very strict on values and respects and principles, and he touched me to do the right thing. So I love it. Then I had a Chex as a professional player, I had Checks, Michael Checa, who touched me a lot on winning mentality. You know, it's like he's a winner and how to and very amateur. In spirit and very professional in the structure, how he structures everything. But it's a it's a winning machine in terms of mentality, it's a winner. And then I had a, for example, who I had as a coach, I've been very lucky when I went in Leinster. I had Stuart Lancaster as a guy who will, he can, how he prepares a team for high performance. It's unbelievable. And I had Leo Cullen. Leo, how he manages the soft parts and how he managed the group and the people, how he talks. It's second to none. He's unbelievable. So I I've been very lucky, you know, in terms of whom I've learned from. And it's great. I've learned from everyone. And now I'm trying to do my own version.

SPEAKER_02 46:46

How's it going? If you had any in your own ver- Well, before we get to your own version, I just love, just as a reflection on what you just said, nearly all of the comments that you made almost life lessons rather than specific rugby lessons. You talked about Marcelo Lafredo talking about how to overcome adversity. You you talked about Michael Checker talking about the balance between having it being amateur in spirit, yet professional in structure. These are these aren't the X's and O's of rugby. These are awesome things to have for life, right? Is that part of the coaching? What sticks in coaching?

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Yes, because I think, look, first, before being players or coaches, we are persons. So it's very important that we understand that rugby, even the world, the world is not oval, it's round. We don't, you know, it's earth is not oval, it's round. So we need to understand that rugby is not, again, I go back to it's not the end, it's a mean. So um for me, even if you go to the specific tactical or technical things in rugby, rugby changes all the time. And it's it's dynamic. And things that worked uh 20 years ago, maybe they start working again this now, you know, and and they wouldn't work five or ten years ago. So it's dynamic and it comes and circles. So the technical stuff, you always have to be learning, looking, trying. But but the the human side is it's always been the same. We are the human, we we are here evolving to be uh better as human beings, but but it's the human side is it's never changed. Like it's the most important part.

SPEAKER_02 48:27

The human side never changes. Yeah, that's very true. Now, just on before, you said you were good at learning from uh the the bad as well as the good stuff. Now, have you gotten any experiences where you've made um a mistake in coaching that's helped you grow? Or like what mistakes have you made that have shaped the way you've coached?

Feedback, Blind Spots, And Change

SPEAKER_00 48:49

Yeah, no, I've loads of mistakes. I'm I'm still making loads of mistakes myself, you know, and and I try to, and the good thing for me it's trying to the problem is we might have blind spots, and that's but if you have I'm I'm a big believer in on on um feedbacks, and especially maybe even when they are even anonymous, because people can tell you exactly what they feel, what they think. And if you take the feedback as a growing opportunity rather than a criticism, you learn and you can get better at those things, you know? And for me, that's very important because sometimes you you can feel that you weren't, I don't know, harsh or tough on something and that you're doing your perception is one, but the people's perception is another one. And it's like it has to be, you have to be too too silly, not to listen what other people are saying. Maybe you need to be more humanized, or maybe you need to be more technical, or but those feedbacks allows me to get better, you know? And yeah, definitely I've looked I've every year I do a feedback, players, coaches between us, and and it's anonymous. And so we can get, I take it as an opportunity for me to get better. Now there are things that I'm working on, trying to get better at, and I still find it difficult because my personality is like that. Well, it's not like that. Sometimes there are certain traits that takes you longer to get better at, but I'm not going to, I'm still going to try to get them right, you know?

SPEAKER_02 50:34

Yeah, yeah. Have you have you had any um feedback which jumps out at you, which just went?

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Yeah. Uh sometimes I get, look, I give you a a perfect example. I'm a big believer in in errors with good intention. They are welcome because they get you get better. Okay? If you do an error, what I don't accept is errors because of negligence or laziness or not knowing your stuff. That's not allowed. But the error, when you try to push the standards higher, I welcome them. Now, as a coach, sometimes I get frustrated on the pitch when there are errors. And maybe my language changes. And and I had that feedback two years ago saying you get frustrated too early when there when something doesn't go go wrong. So I say, I'm incoherent here. I'm saying to the guys, yes, error with good intention is allowed, and then I get frustrated. So if I don't change that uh behavior, it's like it's it's saying one thing and doing the other one. And that's where you can't match. You need to, and I wasn't, and I strongly believe in errors, it's a good, it's an opportunity to learn and to get better. But if I don't act that way, for the other people, for the players, it's like he's saying something and doing the other. So I had to learn and change that stuff, you know. Now, to be honest, I haven't changed a hundred percent because it's it's part of my trade to be, and that's sometimes to show frustration, but I've learned but I've changed already quite a bit in that sense, and and I got better. But it's something that if if they wouldn't have said it to me, maybe I would have continued being not with bad intention, but just naturally frustrated with an error. And it doesn't make helps the player to get better.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

Out of interest, a lot of coaches would be of similar. How have you gone about improving that side of your personality or that side of your coaching?

SPEAKER_01 52:44

Anything specific? Uh what do I do?

SPEAKER_00 52:49

Yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, uh make sure that you recognize what you have to change. Make it again. It's like making it conscious. This is and then find different different ways. Sometimes I talk with a psychologist or or or I find ways of maybe look one thing that helped me is meditation helps me and and brings you down in terms of frustration and anxieties. And so yeah, there are different tools you use, but in the first thing is to recognize that a change has to be done. Then make a plan, an action plan, and then just follow it, you know, do it. And um, yeah, I'm I'm working and I'm I'm working hard on those things, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:41

But and this is what you talked about previously. This is like what you get from rugby, that you're improving as a human around this stuff through this game, you're developing yourself and and and they'll lead into all facets of life, I would say. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Now, if you if you had to give one little aside from that one, advice to young coaches that are coming up, what would be a big piece of advice you would say to a to a coach wanting to do well with coaching?

Coach Live: Correct In The Moment

SPEAKER_00 54:14

I I will steal Jones Eddie's Eddie's advice because it it resembles so much when I started coaching when I heard him saying this, that uh I would probably give Eddie's same advice that he he gave in a podcast a few years ago. It's like make sure that you teach, you learn to teach live. You learn to teach on the pitch and the actions that are happening at the moment. And don't rely too much on technology. Use technology to get better, yes, and to reaffirm or confirm or put in doubt your perceptions. But you need to coach life, you need to make sure you can correct or reinforce an action at the moment that that happens, because then the player can understand, yes, this is the way I need to do it, or no, this is the way I can do it, because I should change the way. And also you give the chance, if you correct it life, you give the chance the player, if you correct a line, for example, a player running a bad line, and you say, Look, you better run this line, blah, you give the chance for the player to correct it that same training session. And when you see that they correct it and you say, That's the line, mate, well done. So then he understands, oh, this is the right way to do it. And I'm pretty sure that next time he'll do it right because he understands what's the right thing to do. So coach life.

SPEAKER_02 55:43

Coach life, yeah. Learn to coach life, not sit on a computer and screens. Which sounds like a piece of parenting advice. Like we get off the screens, but you tell that to your kids. But I suppose that's equally true as coaches. Let's get off the screens and coach people life lessons in this beautiful vehicle, which is rugby. Now, Felipe, this we've got the time. It's been a wonderful conversation, mate, and I've absolutely loved your insight. We've got the time, it's just there's just one question left, mate, and it's one we ask regularly, and it stirs up a little bit of interest. And it's this what is one belief you hold about rugby culture or life that you think you believe in that you reckon your peers would disagree with?

SPEAKER_00 56:25

At my level, yeah. Like one thing that could be, yeah, maybe, I don't know, maybe peers that will think exactly as as I think, but I don't win at any cost. You know, for me it's it's important to win doing the right thing, what is right. So yeah, that's my belief. And and I know that many coaches they don't think like that. It's just winning is everything, and it doesn't matter how, but you need to win. For me, it's like do the right thing and win in the right in the right way, you know, not at any cost.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

I think it's a very, very, very sound statement, mate. And I think whilst everyone would nod their heads at it, I think it would be hard harder for people to admit that that's what that's what they're at.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

Yeah, but maybe maybe a lot of people in in the statement they'll be they'll coincidence, there'll be coincidence with me, but then it's how you do it when you when it comes to the time and make sure you don't win at any cost, you know, you do the right thing. And sometimes that's a tough moment. So I'm very strong on that. Like I believe in doing the right thing, you know, not winning at any cost.

SPEAKER_02 57:38

Well, you certainly live by that mantra, mate, and it it shows in what you do, mate, that um in the way you speak, it's absolutely wonderful, mate. And you're a fantastic role model for coaches that are listening to this to hear that sort of sentiment from one of the world's best coaches. Philippe, Filipack Contempomy, what a pleasure it is to have you here. If I may, I'd just like to round up this awesome conversation with my three takeaways from the show. And that is this. Number one, you said the statement, good leaders create good leaders. And I love that you talked about under you've got to understand what others need, understand the difference in people. And I actually loved it too that you talked about being aware of your own differences too, understanding your blind spots, and you found that through feedback and just that awareness to then go put in place actions to grow you as a leader. Good leaders create good leaders and the cycle continues. Number two is passion can be a strength and it can also be a weakness. And I really loved how you were really open about pulling the best bits from other cultures that suited what your environment needed. And you talked about the Anglo-Saxon and the German influence could be really powerful to balance out the natural Argentinian passion, and you called it excellence. But it's just that that awareness to shape from others is an amazing thing for a coach to do for their team. And number three is rugby is the means, not the end. And this is just absolute gold for everybody involved in rugby. Rugby is the means to transmit good values. You talked about the game is circular, comes and goes with fads and up and down, but the human side is always present. It's always there. And your phrase, learn to teach life, should be the mantra for coaches all over the world because this game is rich in values, and there's so many to choose from, and so many lessons through all the stuff, the suffering, the respect of this game, you can have an absolute impact on someone's life. Flipped Contempony, what an absolute privilege and an honor to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today. Thank you very much, and you said it much better than I did. So, accent.