Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Stu Edwards: Looking after Coaches Mental Well Being
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What if the biggest performance edge your team is missing is the well-being of the person leading it? We sit down with Stuart Edwards—defense coach for Finland and former police officer—who’s conducting one of the first deep academic dives into stress, burnout, and support systems for rugby coaches. From community volunteers to pro environments, the patterns are striking: invisible emotional labor, chronic isolation, rising scrutiny, and very few structures designed to help coaches recover rather than just “be resilient.”
Stuart pulls lessons from policing that translate directly to high-performance sport: stress accumulates quietly, peer support is non-negotiable, and leaders set the emotional tone under pressure. We unpack how those ideas become practical systems in rugby—role clarity that prevents rework and turf wars, upward feedback that aligns head coaches and executives, mentoring that provides a true critical friend, and psychological safety that lets staffs admit uncertainty and adjust fast. We also explore sustainable habits at home and on the job: no-laptop family time, post-camp decompression, walk-and-talk debriefs, and the discipline to work smarter when the instinct is to grind harder.
Across candid stories and early data, one theme holds: you can’t pour into players with an empty cup. If we want sustainable performance, we must build sustainable coaches. Expect clear takeaways you can use this week—whether you run a grassroots side with limited time and too many hats, or operate under KPIs, media cycles, and board expectations. Plus, Stuart shares how to join the research, helping turn visibility into structures that protect coaches and elevate teams.
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Who Looks After The Coach
SPEAKER_01If we want sustainable performance, shouldn't we also be building sustainable coaches? You can't pour into players consistently if your own cup is empty. The moment I realized that the weight I was carrying when I noticed the kind of emotional spillover, I was taking that environment home with me. In rugby, we often assume resilience without sort of educating around recovery. And I feel that high performance still needs a structured decompression. Kept asking myself the main question, who's looking after the coach? Because coaching becomes can become so isolated, you know, and often it's insecure. Um, yet we don't have the structured support systems in place in the same way we do for players.
Introducing Stuart And His Research
SPEAKER_02Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring, I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Stuart Edwards. Stuart is a road coach and well-being researcher with experience across community, academy, university, and international environments. He is defence coach and analyst for the Finnish national team. Before that, a policeman for 18 years. These days, Stuart is doing something that all coaches should be interested in listening to. Through his honours degree at the University of Wales, Trinity St. David, he is undertaking, to the best of our knowledge, the first ever deep diving academic research into stress factors and mental health support systems for rugby union coaches. Yes, I will repeat that. Research into mental health support systems for rugby union coaches. How good, how important for this audience. Stu, welcome to the podcast. Well, Stu, it's just such an amazing amount of type of research that you're doing and very topical for this audience, man. Like it's it's so important. Like it's it's one of those forgotten things. So, mate, how did it all come about? How did this deep dive into this sort of research what inspired her?
SPEAKER_01Well, to be honest with you, um, but a lived experience, a lot of lived experience. And you know, after listening to a lot of your podcasters and experiences I've had, it's understanding the coaching that kind of demands that stability, but what the public kind of sees is only a fraction of what the role is. So the moment I realized that the weight I was carrying um when I noticed the kind of emotional spillover, um, I was taking that environment home with me. Uh, and that that was one of kind of the early sparks of my research. And I just wanted to understand whether other coaches were also carrying this invisible load, and early data so far suggests that they are. And from the the environments I've worked in or been involved in at the moment, as you as you quite rightly said, within community clubs, I've been lucky enough to be around academies, university settings, and national programmes, the more I noticed um how much of the emotional load coaches were carrying. Um, for me, we talk a lot and and quite rightly about player welfare and the player mental health. But I kept asking myself the main question, who's looking after the coach? Because coaching becomes can become so isolated. It's it's relational, it's performance-driven, you know, and often it's insecure. Um, yet we don't have the structured support systems in place um in the same way we do for players. So my research really asks a simple question, to be honest with you, Ben. If we want sustainable performance, shouldn't we also be building sustainable coaches?
The Invisible Load And Isolation
SPEAKER_02You you have a big hand up from me right away, um Stu. Like if you want sustainable performances, we've got to have sustainable coaches. And so, what does the data that you're collecting sort of look like? I know you go through you you're interviewing some pretty um uh uh uh expansive coaches from the likes of Paul Gostardo, Connor Roche, Stuart Lancaster, a whole uh plethora of coaches. What sort of stuff are you getting them to share and what what sort of insight are they are they giving you?
SPEAKER_01I've been quite lucky that they're giving a lot of personal insight and a lot of shared experiences. And like I said, it's been quite relational because even though it's on a different level compared to what I've coached, um they've been very open and honest about their sort of experiences. Um and to be honest, you it's been it's quite shocking in what they've actually gone through, to be honest with you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what's sort of what's sort of made it without any names or anything, but just like what's the sort of sentiment that coaches are finding? Like some big generic ones.
SPEAKER_01There's some big generic ones. There's a a lot of coming back to what I mentioned earlier on, a lot of isolation when the going gets tough, it always ends up on one person's shoulders, unfortunately. And we expect them to pick up and deal with everything when they're managing, they're managing up, they're managing staff, they're managing players, and a whole plethora of external factors, and they're the only people that are taking this in, and it's a heavy load to carry.
SPEAKER_02It's yeah, and I think what your your research will be highlighting too is it's how common it is, right? Like it's this is not one off. You've interviewed hundreds and hundreds of coaches, broad spectrum, and it's it's pretty evident already, right?
SPEAKER_01Definitely is so uh at the moment when I'm speaking to them, it's like the the coaches are really struggling, and it's not just on that one level. You know, I think it's quite complexity with everything that's going on at grassroots level. You've got you've got the staff, the coaches are juggling full-time jobs, family life, safeguarding responsibilities, and sort of how can you say increasing parent parental sort of expectations. And bearing in mind, a lot of these people are sort of they're volunteers, and that load is quite significant. You know, from what I've seen in academy and performance level, the kind of stress sort of shifts then into sort of job insecurity, contract pressures type of thing, selections, scrutiny, and then then we go into sort of the higher end of the of the game where KPI sort of driven environments have a huge load on these people, you know, and what's driving that? You know, it's that increased sort of uh how can we say it's insecure uh scrutiny, that increased expectations, social media, a lot of governance and demands issues, and in some cases, definitely reduced relational support. So for me, having spoken to all these people, and from what I've experienced, the game has quit is professionalized really quickly, but the support for the coaches hasn't evolved at the same pace.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, even at um even when you talk about those different levels, right? When you talk about the that community level, you do look to the the coach of your rugby team as a as a leader and that they've got their stuff all together. But as a general, there's there's no sort of support, or generally it's just a parent that's put their hand up and said, Okay, I'll do it. And then then they're wearing this expectation, this scrutiny, this these governance things which you're like, what's going on here? Even at the grassroots level like that, there's there's pressures and stresses which you don't really realise until you're in it, right? Is that what you found?
SPEAKER_01100%, yeah. Well, you hit the nail on the head. You've got uh you got if you go community game, uh you've got coaches coming home from coming home from work, having a stressful day in work, having to give up their own time away from their family, friends, um, and not only that, but the time they get there, they've probably got to set up the training session, get all the pads out, get everything they need, make sure everyone turns up on time, make sure there's first aid there, make sure the session plan's in place, make sure they stick within the hour period time period because the boys don't want to turn stay there too late, especially if it's raining and it's wet. If you're from Wales. But uh yeah, it's uh if you think if you throw all that in the mix, it's uh it's a really it's a real it can turn into a pressure cooker.
SPEAKER_02Well, and and and it flows to everywhere. I remember when I 20 years ago when I was coaching uh amateur club level stuff, and the amount of time I had to spend, like I'd finish my day at work and then I'd have to go, well, I'd want to go, but then my wife would be like, Oh, are you going again? I was like, Yeah, yeah, this is this is all yeah, this is this is not changing anytime soon. And then you'd be running around as a taxi service, all this other stuff, and picking up and you spend so much time, volunteer time, which is which is lovely, you love it. But it does have a little bit of a taxing effect on your home life. And if you're not getting sort of a little bit of a sounding board on sometimes how to deal with that, when does it stop and when does it end? And are you compromising your smaller family's well-being too?
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, and if you lose your lose your support network, then it's a really lonely place to be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, it's not uh just just subjectively from my own experience, uh, relationships outside the game for coaches is something which is always challenged because of that concept that you're giving so much to another group of people, you're forgetting about you'd argue, one of the most important groups of people, which is your your home family life. And it's not an uncommon phenomenon that a coach's family life isn't as good as the environment they're creating in their team.
Stress Across Grassroots To Pro
SPEAKER_01No, it's not. It's not as good as it's been a very sort of uh very consistent theme in in the interviews and uh yeah, it's been brilliant.
SPEAKER_02Is that right? Is it is it loud and clear that coaches struggle with their own home lives?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That balance is difficult, as you well know. Everyone will know.
SPEAKER_02Then and even uh I enjoyed when you jumped up to sort of that academy level stuff when there's job security stuff. So when you do get sort of into that sort of the first step on the rank, then then you have that sort of academy systems, or when you start to get paid a little bit of money to do this thing, then it's job security pressures. Is that big on the on the list?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, not so much in Wales because I think the academy's structured in Wales, that you've got a lot of the X pros that have that are sort of helping out as well. So, you know, you know, I can imagine within other within the premiership probably because there's more coaching options, there's more more coaching of coaching jobs and that academy setup. Because in Wales, we as you know, we're operating with four teams, so it's gonna be very limited opportunities for sort of coaches who aspire to get to that sort of level. Um, and like I said, I was lucky to go in and spend a bit of time with them just to upskill myself, you know. And then you're working with these guys who are literally carrying so much stress because again, their performance-driven is creating those players, developing those players, but still trying to get some results at the same time.
SPEAKER_02I think it's just an interesting little thing. I you just sort of triggered me there. There's like I suppose X players, professional players, are kind of used to that sort of insecurity on the job front because ultimately they've been playing a career where if you're not playing good, you're out and you get cut. And for for most people that's not that's not normal that you could just be sacked if you're sometimes you get dropped just because the coach doesn't really like the way you do things. You might be a good player, but the boss doesn't like it, so you just get released at the end of the season. And as a professional player, you sort of get used to that dynamic where you're a little bit mercenary to a point and you get used to right oh, well, that's just that and nothing too personal and I'll move on. But for the bulk of people in the everyday sort of job to go into that, it's very different where oh shees, if I don't, if I don't front here, I'll be gone and then I'll be have nothing. It's not nice, is it? It's a different stress.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, plus uh if you haven't got anything to provide your family or pay your bills, then yeah, that's uh it's a different stress altogether, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Mate, that's but I look forward a little bit later in the show, I'd love to just talk about some of the some of the thought process you have around systems that coaches could put in. But for now, mate, I'd like to I'd like to dive into a little bit um into sort of some of your background if if I may, mate, just to get a little bit of stuff. Well you're coach you're coaching in Finland. Yes, mate, that's an amazing, amazing place to coach. And we were just chatting off here about some of the the cultural differences there. How's that experience, firstly?
SPEAKER_01That experience has been absolutely amazing. Um, and to be honest, it was kind of changed my life. A massive outlook. The people in Finland are just how can I say so amazing. They would really welcome in from a culture point of view, going out there. We've got a great bunch of players who, you know, you're coaching them, you'd ask them to do something, uh, and they you ask them to correct and they just do it. And because they're just really the sponges, they're really great. And it's they just want to sort of, how can I say, they they want to pull the information from you, and it's been a joy to um experience that and not get to know them because Finland's such a huge country that we got we got some players who literally drive six hours to get to to the training camp. And so when they turn up a bit sort of tired and weary, you're like, You okay? But it's good to see them the different uh different types of people from the different types of uh areas of Finland has been fantastic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what a what an experience, especially for a coach educator like yourself to just have that that that joy of the game again, right? Where people are just just want to be there and they're traveling for miles. Just the weather that's something they're going with. You talked about off-air, that sometimes you have like when you're you're trading in Finland a negative 40 degrees sometimes, and then you go off and you play Gibraltar in the same time zone, which is positive 20 degrees, and having that sort of swing. I mean, that must be fascinating to to as a coach to get used to that sort of dynamic.
Family Strain And Support Networks
SPEAKER_01The first time it was for me, to be honest to you, like um coming from uh I was lucky enough to go to Finland to spend Christmas, uh a little bit of Christmas and New Year's in Finland with uh my partner's family. So it was I think like I said it was minus 17 the first day and it was minus 40 when we left. And like I said, came back to Sunny Wales uh for a couple of days where it's been raining constantly and it didn't get over three degrees. And then literally within within a fortnight, uh well, yeah, sorry, a fortnight I went from minus 40 to plus 20, and I don't think the body recovered from the cold to the warmth, and but it's a really great experience. Finland in in the snow is just magical, it's amazing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what are you picking up um as a coach coming from Wales to to Finland? What's what's some of the the the coaching joy that you you're getting?
SPEAKER_01Communication, learning to speak a little bit cl slower. Um, but no, it's good because it's understanding probably language barrier can be um a little bit tricky, but that's because again, what I say and how we say things in in Wales is different to what they say and what they understand in Finland. So it's been great trying to build those connections with the players and able to uh get that sort of level of understanding of what I want from them and what they want from me. Um so it's been fantastic building those relationships and connections with we we're lucky we've had around about 60, 70 people through the camps and the and the and the squ and the games. And it's just every everyone is different, everyone is amazing. It's just those bonds and creating that's what I that's what I like the most to be honest. I'm a real sort of relationship kind of person, and I I love I'll I'll speak to them all all day, and I just it's it that's the one thing I've taken from out is how nice and how sort of wonderful the people are out there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it seems like a common thread when you talk to coaches that are coaching interesting places like Finland. It's just about the people, isn't it? The joy that you get to go and play a game essentially with with 40 to 50 different people and you get to learn from all of those people and have that experience and a shared bond and a community, like a pre-made community, right? You're just walking into like, oh wow, this is and that's the joy of this game. And in that community, you're gonna have people of all different walks of life, so you will resonate with people fantastically in there, because there'll be there'll be your people in there.
SPEAKER_01It's been it's been great, and um we're actually flying up there again tomorrow, so I'm really looking forward to uh catching up with them since Gibraltar, unfortunately, it'll be in the snow.
SPEAKER_02And mate, before this, before this, you were into uh policing for 18 years. Now, how has that role helped your coaching and what does it help you as a person?
Coaching In Finland And Culture
SPEAKER_01It taught me a lot to be honest with you. Um it was um involved in a lot of uh horrible things, a lot of good things you see uh in in in that environment, you see the worst, uh the worst of society, unfortunately. I will always go back to um policing taught me kind of three things. Uh firstly was um the stress accumulates quietly, it builds quietly. You know, you can go from call to call to call doing a 12-hour shift, and you could be going from anything from uh a simple theft um to um sudden death or someone in real crisis moment where there's life on the lines, so that's a it's a lot to sort of take on board emotionally and physically. Secondly, the main this was probably the main thing that I felt that peer support systems mattered enormously, just to have that sort of group of people who kind of understand, understood what I was doing or what I went through, kind of relates to to coaching because as you say, when when you're the head coach or assistant coach and you're and your head's on the chopping block, so to speak, and you've got to make those decisions, you need to be able to speak to someone who's kind of been through those situations to help you guide you, maybe help you understand what you what you're sort of experiencing. And then thirdly, and I think this is really important and it sort of goes back to coaching culture. You know, as a leader, you set that emotional tone under pressure. So it's you you gotta when we're coming back to all those things, you've got to make sure that you you you can understand what's going on and deal with this pressure. So in policing, obviously we were trained then to recognise trauma exposure and critical incident stress, but in rugby, we often assume the resilience without sort of educating around recovery. Um, and I feel that high performance still needs a structured decompression. How do the police do it?
SPEAKER_02How do the police create uh systems to re that recognise trauma?
SPEAKER_01I think when you were picked up from when you were dealing with a sort of a traumatic incident, you'd end up with um a trauma sort of uh informed manager, then you'd be taken away and uh spoken to and given sort of uh a little bit of sort of counselling or checkovers to make sure that you can cope with mechanisms really to deal with those sort of incidents. So they were only short, don't get me wrong, because you know, in a week you could end up going to several traumatic incidents. I like to use the word you become desensitized and you kind of decomp you know, comp compartmentalize everything and put things aside so you can box this problem up and then you just move on to the next one.
SPEAKER_02And that's a good thing or not a good thing?
SPEAKER_01Not a good thing.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_01Not a good thing. Since leaving the police the last three years, it's um it hasn't been good. Sort of I think it was easier when you're dealing with stuff constantly because you know the next thing's coming, but when when that all stopped, it's like it's like a box opened and then you can't put the lid back on.
SPEAKER_02So they had systems where they had actually people there you could check in with and it was almost if if it was deemed to be of a certain priority, you have to go and clock in with this person, right? Like an expert who knows how to deal and recognize trauma symptoms.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that's right. But uh it would only be it wouldn't be like a consistent thing, it would be like a one or two sort of check in and then right, if you're okay, then off you go to the next one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's it's a big organization, isn't it? Uh the police system, right? So there's there's probably those other constraints around that, isn't there, like time and money and a hundred percent. Uh mate, some of the stuff that you just talked about that you're learning from the police, such as one stress accumulates quietly. For me, that's that's coaching pressures, right? That's that's what you'd be seeing in the research. Like we as coaches, there is no support network, there's no systems. I've certainly never even ever been told around here's what you do. But that the the little stresses that come is like just little things, right? Like when a player challenges you, why why are we doing that? And then that feeling that gives, or I don't like this drill, this is a crappy drill, or I'm pissed off that I'm not selective, those don't seem like massive traumatic events, and they're not, but they accumulate quietly. And if you get enough of those training, and you probably do, you probably get half a dozen of those little things, you're right, mate. That they accumulate up, right? And then how do you get over them and through them? And and and is it just do you think it's just time or do you think there's little things that you can do to improve?
SPEAKER_01I I think uh I've been speaking to talking to a lot of people, you know, it's been amazing to me just to highlight what you're saying, the hidden stress is that I don't think I think people don't see, and that's why I kind kind of call it the invisible workload, because that's what it is. The emotional sort of regulation you get in meetings with players, with uh you know, managing conflict with between staff. I would say absorbing sort of player distress, as you quite rightly said, you know, not being happy with the drill, not being selected. And then if you go the higher end of the rugby away from community, you're dealing with handling board politics, you know, count with your other staff, then you know that selection conversations. You know, coaches often act as an emotional shock absorbers for of an organization, really. Um, and that load isn't in the job description, but it's constant. So how you deal with it, I think you need to have a good team around you, good co-coaches. You probably got that a little bit more in the in the professional game than you would in the community game because nine times out of ten, it's just you're either on your own or you're with someone else. So you've got to have that support network to, as you quite rightly say said earlier on, about to have that soundboard to have a good chat about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, coaches are emotional shock absorbers. That's a great phrase because that's so true. But then you stop and think about it. No coach has been prepared for that. It's part of the job for sure, but it's not. It's not in a job description, but it's a massive part of the job, especially on head coaches, and then you're just throwing someone that's not got any level of um experience in that side of things into that role, right? And then expecting them to be uh all good with it and not have any baggage as a result of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02You also mentioned the co-coaching stuff and managing managing your co-coaches, because that's a massive relational piece. What what sort of insight have you delved into around that side of things?
Policing Lessons For Coaching
SPEAKER_01I think that's that's a good one because some people have mentioned they've been to clubs where they haven't been able to select their back backroom stuff. Whereas then you've got someone coming into your sort of coaching environment and not agreeing with what you're doing. So then you've got issues around your how your philosophy, how you want to play the game, how you want to sort of Your team selection. But then you speak to people then who have got a tight-knit group and they they work through as best they can. You know, they they they look after each other, they they have that sounding board, they have those chats and they challenge each other um sort of respectfully in a good way. But as you well know, it's uh in the in the pro game, everyone's vying for that next step up. Some people are, some people aren't. Don't get me wrong, I'm not generalizing. But there's always that one person with ambition who will do anything to get the top job that they want, really, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's that's this is a whole nother round of thinking, right? Like a head coach is almost like a a jack of all trades, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you've got to wear a lot of hats.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. A lot of hats.
SPEAKER_02A lot of hats, mate. And how do you juggle that side of things? How do you juggle well, because you don't get taught how to juggle this is some of this other stuff. How do you how do you do it?
SPEAKER_01No, you don't. I think for me personally, um I would I've done a lot of research myself, done a lot a lot of looking into well-being and what what you need to do and how you need to look after yourself. But a lot of um a lot of coaches have turned turned their hand to sort of creating those good habits to ensure that they're going through set sort of set parameters for themselves so that they don't deviate from that and they make sure that they've got their sort of how can you say this their little systems in place like exercise, walking, spending time with a family, you know, you know, leaving leaving everything at the door, no laptops, no phones in the house to make sure that they're present with their families as well. So I think um a lot of people do things differently, and that's that's that's why people are amazing because you know everyone's different. Some people like to go to the gym and flash themselves, and other people are literally shut the door. I'm with my family, this is what's grounding me, this is what's getting me back. And I must say, I say 99.9% of the people have all mentioned that they have amazing partners who fully understand what they're going through. And if they didn't have them, from what I can see, I I don't know how they would have coped because like yourself, Ben, you've been coaching in different parts of the world and you've your family moved around with you. Other people haven't have moved uh to coach in a different world parts of the world but haven't taken their family with them, so that gives a different sort of dynamic and a different stress again, you know, missing missing key sort of life life incidents with families, you know, birthdays, you know, children's concerts or anything. So it's uh that adds a different level of stress again.
SPEAKER_02I think what you're talking about here, mate, it's just like like essentially creating little systems for yourself that that you can just flick back to, right? Like that that's kind of whatever that may be that suits you and your personality, like sounding boards, exercise regimes, clock off times. That that that's 99% you said, like the best all the coaches find ways, right? I think I think it goes back then to this peer support system matters that you talked about in the police. Because when you have a peer that's going through or preferably more experienced that's gone through it, right, and they're able to offer up little s their little systems to see if they work for you, that's that's a key piece. It's almost like a little bit of mentoring, isn't it? Like we often talk about, you know, your players have got, you know, the more experienced players in a team they can follow and things, but as a coach, you're kind of top of the food chain in most teams. And unless you're that way inclined, you don't necessarily reach out to another coach. Even another coach at your level is important. Just in here, when I'm I had a one of the other schools here, the director of rugby here, we had a our chat the other day and it was just wonderful, just mate, what are you struggling with? What are you doing at your school? And it wasn't we're competing schools, but just to go through and chat with, oh, you're having that issue as well, and how are you dealing with this one? And just that shared experience is is awesome, and it just puts you at ease to go, okay, so it's not just me and this program, it's it's all programs, and this guy who's got this very successful one is going through it too, and that's what he's doing. That's a good idea, and I might and when you get to that level, it she makes but you've got to put that sort of olive branch out sometimes, right? And sort of be brave. But would you have any other suggestions around that?
SPEAKER_01No, I think uh to be honest with you, I think you're looking at sort of creating that kind of healthier sort of coaching sort of environment, then aren't you, really? So I I think it's you need to have you don't have that support now, you don't really check in with the coaches unless you unless you do it yourself. But why can't we arrange a day for all coaches to come together? Why can't we arrange coffee mornings for everyone to get together and speak to each other uh on a human level rather than worrying about giving away tactics or we're playing you on the weekend? So I think it's just having that sort of peer-to-peer support and everyone having the ability to park the ego and just pick the phone up and say, Are you okay? I've been through this, this is what I did. It might not help you, but this is what helped me. And then as you say, when when when you have those small chats with people or something will resonate with you, um, and then you will just pick it up and go and say, But you know what, that that's kind of helped me in that. And that could be the difference between being having a good good day or a bad day, or changing the way you approach your coaching going forward. Pack the ego.
SPEAKER_02Is the ego come up a few times in the research?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so. I think you're looking at um there's a there's a lot of barriers there, isn't there? Because um coaches don't uh they would you know at the end of the day, especially if you're a head coach, you've got to have all the answers because everyone comes to you for the answers. Um, and I think I I don't think it's it's getting a lot better. I think a lot of it's been quite balanced within the research, I must say. But a lot of people have said that they wouldn't reach out um sort of willingly. Um, and some have said, like yourself, you know, yeah, definitely you know, it's great to have that chat and trying to get that sort of baseline of of understanding of right, you've been through this, help me out, yeah, sort of thing.
SPEAKER_02I think even further to that, there's parking the ego is a quite hard thing to do sometimes. The f the first thing is you don't even really realize you've got it unless you're making a conscious effort to be aware that actually this is a rubbish thinking process I'm going through. Why is that? Well, what's my ego saying here? And the ego is essentially, you know, thinking it's all about you, all that stuff. It's uh the ego having the ego is a not a not a bad trade, it's just how you manage it. Like ego keeps you competitive in that desire and that hunger, but it also can make you defensive and um righteous and all that sort of stuff. So you just need to make sure you own it and it doesn't own you, I think is is the thing. But that again is you you have to talk to people to sort of understand that. And and sometimes that sounding board partner is the best person to pull you up, right? To say, come on, you're getting out of line. Yeah.
Decompression And Trauma Checks
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're right. And I think just coming back to that, uh, I don't like to say it, but that lovely word, this bandit about that sort of psychological safety. I mean, for coaches, I think it means you need to be able to say, Look, do you know what I don't know this or say hands up, I need that little bit of support now. Can what can we do? But you know, the you know, I've made a mistake, yeah. You know, I shouldn't have I shouldn't have done this, I shouldn't have picked that person, I shouldn't have gone with this tactic. But I think it's by creating that sort of environment without fear of immediate judgment or career damage. If a coach can't be vulnerable in my eyes or within their own staff, staffing group, um, you know, it becomes very difficult to model sort of a healthy behaviour to play as then. So that's why I think it's important we need to sort of have those opportunities and have that ability to speak to people.
SPEAKER_02So what else, mate? So that psychological safety is a phrase that's used a lot, right? So how else does it look? What does it look like for coaches? You mentioned that vulnerability piece, but is there any others that have come up?
SPEAKER_01It's been mainly around that, to be honest with you. Um I think it's just having that um, you know, if a lot of people have are in healthy environments, coaching environments, and I think a lot of people are building building it on the basis of a lot of research they're doing themselves. So for me, I think how can you say in practice for coaching groups? I think if you're a head coach, I think you need to make sure that you've got that sort of everyone's got that sort of clear role clarity within within the group to make sure that healthy environment is there. I think there's honest upward feedback needs to do in. I think mentoring structures definitely need to be put in place.
SPEAKER_02A lot of people want honest, open, upward chat, did you say? Upward feedback, yeah. Up put feedback, upward feedback, yeah.
SPEAKER_01What what what does that look like? So I would say that's probably more from assistant coaches up to head coaches, and then I would 100% say managing upwards within sort of the top end of the rugby spectrum is dealing with the the expectations of uh the CEOs or the owners of these clubs because I think sometimes they they don't understand what the head coach is doing, what what they're trying to achieve. So I think realistically, upward feedback is making sure a lot of feedback is that the guys need to make sure that they're on board, they know what's going on, they know what how you're trying to play, they know what you're gonna do, they know what the next year or two looks like if they kind of back you with your sort of recruitment um or even not even that, just equipment for you to get the best of the players.
SPEAKER_02What um it's an interesting one because feedback generally is coach to player, that's the general thing. But this one is saying something different, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01When you're talking Yeah, or maybe feed forward. I I do like that word more than feedback because if you're you're explaining to them what you expect, what you want and or what your what your expectations are, and this is how we want to play the game, you know, the last thing you want is um like a CEO or your head, your head, your director rugby not knowing what you're doing. And it's just if you keep I think from speaking to yourself as well, if everyone's kept in the loop and everyone knows what you're trying to achieve, I think that keeps a good sort of healthy environment for everyone.
SPEAKER_02I think you're right too. I think even that that conscious that you mentioned at the very start is assistant coaches talking to head coaches, you know, this is what I'm saying, or are we sure this is on the right direction? You could even argue that you could the the moment you get a player coming quietly and saying, Do you think we're actually achieving what we're you know wanting to get out of this training for the game or whatever like that, as soon as you're getting sort of senior players or any players coming and doing that, you know there's a there's a bit of an upward feed-forward system sort of in place, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's why it's valid because a lot of assistant coaches sometimes you can go into an environment where you might you might have played the job and got the role um and not knowing the head coach, you kind of get that sort of if if the relationship's not right, that perhaps the fear of approaching them explaining, saying that hang on, these guys explaining to me or there's something missing, so we're clearly missing something in either how our language or how we're sort of pitching what we want. I think it's a kind of having that ability to speak to them and say, right, something's going on, we need to get at the bottom of it, and how can we work this out to make sure that we're all okay and the players are okay, so we're all understanding what we want and uh how we're gonna get things uh sorted.
SPEAKER_02Is that something that you would recommend um from the research that putting a system like that in place is a really cool thing to have in?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um some of the environments I'd being in, they they they do that already, which is great. But I think definitely, again, it it comes back to what I mentioned earlier on. I think it's definitely that role clarity for everyone because you know I think I think everyone's gotta be open to saying, right, you know, this is what I'm seeing, this is my opinion, what do you think? And then you've either you either go with it or it gets sort of pushed to the side, or you meet the halfway and say, right, okay, you can see where you're coming from. How can we fix this to make sure that everything's okay?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. The upward feed up feedback, feed forward. You mentioned a mentoring system that that that's yeah, yeah, I think so.
Coaches As Emotional Shock Absorbers
SPEAKER_01There's a mentor disruption I think is definitely needed because as you well know, you and you mentioned earlier on when people are going through going through the sort of um the dark days of coaching when your your team isn't really performing and you you can't do any more. Um, and again, a lot of a lot of people saying, you know, they just work harder, but then working harder isn't really the answer sometimes. It's just working that's smarter. Um, and I think that if you have a mentoring structure from, you know, this goes from assistant coaches to you know head coaches to director of rugby to anyone really, that they've got to have that that person to sort of as as Gilbert and Oka said to you, that that critical friend to basically say, right, this is what I'm seeing. How can we get this back on track, or how can we how can we work out um how can we work out a better way of uh sort of approaching what you're trying to do? So I think mentoring is brilliant.
SPEAKER_02Working smarter, not harder. I think that is a very common phrase, right? Like when the pressure comes on, you just knuckle down, you double down on the work rate, right? Is it is that definitely uh That's coming through massively, that is, yeah.
SPEAKER_01What do you reckon that is? I think it's just the fear of wanting to do more to make sure that as an individual you're there because you want to do the best you can do for those players. And if it's not if you're not hitting the note or hitting the right sort of level, then what can you do? The only way to do is right, right? I must do it more, I've got to do more. I gotta do more to make sure that these I can get what I need from these players in this team.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it almost becomes a little bit OCD-ish, doesn't it? Like I can't not show every single clip that could possibly happen because if I was to leave one out and then it happened, it would be on me as not being due due diligence here, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. 100%.
SPEAKER_02Man, it's it's funny how when you just you the way you're nodding and going, oh yeah, this is this is coming really clear through the research is is phenomenal. Can I just jump back? Like just with but I really enjoy some of your police takeaways. The one, stress accumulates quietly, which is very relevant for coaching. Two, that's peer support system matters, which we've discussed is very important. But the other one you said was leaders set the emotional tone under pressure. Now, how is that's for me very replicatable in coaching too. Like pressure does funny things to everybody. What have you seen in the research? Where do where do the coaches go when the pressure comes on?
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, not to give too much away. There's um a lot of um a lot of coaches, it's it's it's a tough place to be, especially when your back's up against the wall, isn't it? Um if you haven't got that sort of critical friend to speak to and get that support and sort of have that soundboard to say, right, this is what I'm doing, what do you think? You know, you've been through this, what can you say? But for me, um it's a it's it's a tough one to be honest with you. It is a tough one because they've got a what can I think about this now?
SPEAKER_02Well, I well mate, I'll I'll jump in just quickly just around from a real subjective measure is like as a player when the coaches are under pressure and stress, it comes off on you massively, right? You can feel that edge, you can feel that defensiveness, you can feel that sort of hustle in their voice. And and I even know like like G even at a relationship level at like home, you know, when my wife's something's happened because she comes steaming in the door and everyone's like, Oh, well, let's just be careful here. There's there's something's happened. And likewise with me, right? Like when I come home and I've had a tough day. But when you're coaching, you're doing that to thir of sometimes 30 people on in on a field, right? And it's like, oh jeez. That's for me the subjective emotional tone when pressure comes on. What are you coming across as?
SPEAKER_01And I think that's the problem because you what you're absorbing, you you're putting up in the players as well. So you need to try and have that clear sort of a clear sort of mindset and be able to be in a really good place to get the best out of yourself. And if you can get the best out of yourself, you can get the best out of other people around you. But if you're carrying that sort of weight on your shoulders, then and you're not performing if you got for me, if you can have that opportunity to have that peer support system or any sort of support, I think that'll give people that extra 10% to give towards the the other players and and the team support the team around them. It's massive. You know, if you've got that emotional pressure, that's clearly gonna come out, as you said. But for me, if you can manage that and you've got those opportunity and outlets to just improve you, then that's gonna really help other people around you.
SPEAKER_02That's cool. And this data that you're doing, uh collecting, you know, like it's a very hard thing to um quantify sometimes, like this sort of how you how are you sort of putting it together? So you're obviously doing uh lots of interviews, like hundreds and hundreds of interviews. How are you then sort of quantifying that and put and putting it into a uh a body of work?
SPEAKER_01So I've got an online questionnaire as well, which has been brilliant. So I've had around about 85 responses from communities from from a community level to pro level around the world, which has been absolutely amazing because it's quite interesting to see that it's not just in Wales, it's not just in England or the UK. This same thing is happening everywhere. So I'm using a lot of stats from there, but I'm gonna do a lot of compare and contrast then from the actual face-to-face interviews with um with everyone because uh I'm asking the same questions are there. Um but it's uh it's all based on sort of uh the sort of coach stress levels, uh depression levels, sort of all sort of medical sort of questionnaires they're taking from. So we can quantify a lot from that, which is gonna be uh and when I can't when and when it's finished, I can't wait. Um looking at the results now, it's just mind-blowing. It's uh everything I expected, but it's frightening.
SPEAKER_02Is that right? Everything you expected it and more so.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01What's the frightening pieces without giving too much away already before you Well, to be honest, you it's a lot of uh a lot of stress, a lot of lack of support, probably is the best way to say Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and and where you're going post this research, where would you be going in terms of putting some frameworks in to to help this this phenomenon going forward?
Role Clarity And Upward Feedback
SPEAKER_01Yeah, this is uh listen, there's a lot of framework to be built around this, and I'm just scratching the surface with this initial research. Um, because the findings I'm having now that I think there's enough for another six or seven researchers off the back of this. But for me, it's um I'm gonna be setting up um something to make sure that we can put some sort of support networking in place for coaches and uh and and because it's definitely needed and it's not up there. Don't get me wrong, a lot of people are doing it privately, they're getting people in themselves, but nothing is given to them from organizations themselves freely. So realistically for me, it's the best way to do is uh off the back of this research and information that um I can put back to the coaches and have something in place to help them and support them through their coaching lives.
SPEAKER_02Alright, so what would be some of the like just if you had to give some big ones just off the bat, some of the healthier, sustainable coaching environments, where would you say is the big ones at the moment that you said this is what it looks like in actual practice? Is it just things we've talked about already?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we talked about it already. I think it'll start with it starts with three things really, doesn't it? You know, visibility, you know, making a coach well be in something that's openly acknowledged and kind of not assumed because people think that everyone's okay. Conversation definitely is creating that sort of intentional space where coaches can talk honestly about load pressure and support. Again, going back to without giving away any of the tactics or anything else like that. But um, but for me, I think the third one then will be structure. We need to ensure that those conversations kind of aren't reactive and built into um a sort of um just built into organization to help people, you know. We we we don't need to be interview intervening or uh helping people in at the moment of crisis, we need to be there before, we need to be providing those support networks, understanding where they're going. And that might look like what we've spoken about mentoring touch points, well-being reflections and reviews, or that peer support opportunities. So um, and in all honesty, that doesn't require really a huge buzz uh budget, it just requires intentionality.
SPEAKER_02But it's a couple of cool things there you mentioned is that that visibility piece is a start point, and I think you're absolutely right because it's like um not that we've had our heads in the sands around a coach's mental health, but it's just you've sort of been oblivious to the fact that it's happening to everybody, and and then as soon as you sort of raise a bit of visibility and what you're collecting is essentially the social proof that this is a real thing. Like every single coach you're talking to is saying, I'm struggling for a good chunk of time with this sort of stuff. And then what will be cool when your research comes out in time is that it'll really show visibility to this. Like, this is a a genuine thing, this is not just something we're gut feeling. Here's the data from hundreds and thousands of coaches that have gone on the record. I I guess you could almost equate it to like what's happening sort of in the concussion piece. Like it's it's it hasn't not been there for a long time, but all of a sudden enough players are getting it at once, coming together and going, This is a this is a thing, right? Like we've got to actually we've actually got to come up with some systems here, and that that what do you call that that groundswell actually forces change, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think um like I said, it's it's gonna it's gonna highlight quite a lot of things. We know what's out there, but again, unless it's visible, then nothing's gonna come about it. Like we say, we're we're all all coaches, and as you well know, Ben, you know, coaches don't talk about this thing, so it's just an assumed sort of uh thing that people are okay.
SPEAKER_02Visibility. Comms, be okay to talk about this stuff. This is like for a lot of coaches of probably of our generation, we're we're still like a little bit leaned in the old way, which was very stoic and keep it to your chest and just get on with and do things, which we're a product of our environment, but we're on that cusp where the new environment's not going to be that. And so Yeah. We're part of the um the gateway to this new way of doing things, which it's okay to actually talk about your feelings and and how you're dealing with your stress. And then you're
SPEAKER_01There is a deafness where there's a definite deafness switch because speaking to some of the younger cultures, then yeah, that they're they're quite open and honest is great. It is good.
SPEAKER_02It is good, mate. And and sort of our generations, we're the um the locked door that can actually let the water flow down, right? Like up and down. Because if we're okay doing it, then it's really gonna pave the way for the next generation to be really comfortable doing this sort of stuff. And then you talked about the structure stuff, and I think that concept you said around be there before all all the shit hits the fan, right? And and that's important too. Like you don't want to be picking up the pieces and trying to patch something back together. You'd rather be making sure that you don't mind people going low, but you don't want them to not be able to get up.
SPEAKER_01You want to catch them before they hit there. Um, and I think that by putting systems in place or you know, welfare systems to make sure that they have that opportunity to have that conversation and one that visibility of knowing where to go for that sort of support because you know a lot of it is speaking to a lot of coaches, um they ha there isn't awareness, there isn't um sort of informal training, but um a lot of them do do a lot of research and find a lot of help themselves. That's been uh a bit of a shock to me to be honest here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I can I can imagine. And mate, what would be if you had to give sort of like um if a young coach is sort of listening to this and feeling overwhelmed or sort of putting on a burnt out, what what would you sort of say to them as about what to prioritize first?
Mentors, Ego, And Psychological Safety
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh I I would probably say burnout isn't it's not a weakness. You know, it's burnout is prolonged stress without recovery. So I'd probably encourage them to sort of clarify what's within their control um and and I'd go on to speak to someone that they trust to get that sort of um sounding board or get it off their chest, because as you know, as soon as you start talking about it you start feeling a little bit better because the pressure comes off. Thirdly, I'd probably say reconnect with their why and why they started their coaching, because then that'll help you get grounded and sort of bring you back to sort of a bit more energized and and definitely then start to sort of protect one area of recovery for themselves per week. Because for me, you can't pour into players consistently if your own cup is empty.
SPEAKER_02There's a nice little analogy you can't pour into others' cups if yours is empty. You've got nothing to pour. Nothing to pour. Empty. That'd be bad. Mate, you should s our household goes crazy when that happens. It's like dad's dad's walking around going, What's going on here? The kids aren't stealing it. Burnout is not a weakness. No, it's not. And that's that's a cool phrase because it it it has a little bit of that sentiment too. Like it's a little embarrassing to say, I'm burning out, but it's it's there, right? I I I was certainly burnt out at times.
SPEAKER_01I think there's still that bit of astigmatism or sort of uh barrier for people to say that look I'm not struggling. I can I can I'm I'm fine, I can carry on, I can do this and I'll work harder. Not knowing that they're putting that sort of more stress on their body again and again because if they're working harder and they're struggling, then they're just putting more pressure on themselves.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And sometimes it like this mental burden can then manifest itself in physical burdens as well. Like you start getting physically ailing, you get little rashes or you put on a little weight down the mid-room. Well, all that stuff, right? And you can you probably see it in a lot of coaches that it's very common for a coaches to blow out in terms of shape, in terms of yeah, they they don't feel like exercising, they make up for it with overeating, getting their endorphins flying through ways which aren't healthy, alcohol, food, all that stuff. That's very is that very common too?
SPEAKER_01That's been uh a bit of a trait, yeah, of some experiences, um, which again is quite sad because you know these guys uh for me I'm speaking to Ollie's Amazing people who are uh effectively effectively living the kind of dream that I wanted. But sometimes the experiences they're explained to me, I I just feel that uh they're just lived living living a night meh because there's some of the experiences some of them have been through. It's uh from me, from a person on the outside who aspired to be that kind of kind of professional top end coach. Um and obviously there's been quite a lot of stuff in the press recently. You just don't see what happens behind the scenes. Um yeah, it's uh something that you should be passionate about and you wanted to do becomes quickly turns into something that's not.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that funny? Like you you're having this amazing insight to some of the world's best coaches and it's losing the glamour when you're hearing the backstories of the j of the role, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it it is, but it's circumstantial as well, and I think this is why this kind of research can help the future coaches to be honest with you, uh, because if we can get these systems in place, then we won't have the we can have the people you know not not experiencing these things. Um and I think that's the main thing because you know in this day and age burnout is frequently about because everyone's trying to do too much, you know, work-wise, family-wise, personal lives. I just think this is really important.
SPEAKER_02I couldn't agree more, and it's it's the start of a this new sort of build-up, mate, to a new way of coaching, the new modern way of coaching, where we're we're taking the best bit from the ways of the past, but then we're also bringing in stuff which's gonna make a real difference. And this sort of research that you're doing, Sue, I reckon, is gonna be that guiding light, I think, mate. Fingers crossed. Yeah, mate. So where's the where where is it now, mate? Where's the research at? When's it coming out? What do you need in terms of support around really making this a la a land um a milestone sort of project and a a beacon out there? What do you what do you need for from the coaches here?
SPEAKER_01And how do you think uh help really just if you're happy to get involved and sort of uh take part in an interview um or do an online questionnaire, whichever way is easier, the online on questionnaire is anonymous. My current work is gonna be sort of submitted in May, but I'm gonna be continuing my research because I think that um this has got this this can't be something that's sort of a couple of months in and then say, right, okay, I've done my research and leave it there. I'm quite passionate to make sure that this continues and I'm gonna be cracking on really to make sure that I can get the right information and make sure I've got all information around male and female game because it's not just about men, Ben, this is about the female game as well and female coaches. Not that I want to say that because coaches are coaches. Um, at the moment within my research, females are underrepresented. But again, that's just something I'm trying to sort of get balanced. So anyone out there that's happy to sort of contact me and speak to me about uh their experiences. The more people we speak to, the more information we get to be able to put those sort of system and frameworks in place to support everyone to the best of their ability.
SPEAKER_02And this this research will be so it's it closes in May, and from there you'll then put in place the sort of you the overview and what the out the outcomes were. And then you ought to make some like structural stuff around how clubs and organizations can actually help coaches deal with this mental side of the game.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally. Um yeah, from from as I said, from the information we've given you, it's been it's been fascinating, it's been brilliant. Um, and there's clear ways to put things in place to help coaches out. And um I'm I'm really looking forward to sort of continuing that and making sure that these get put in place through governance. And uh I'll I'll I'll I'll speak to obviously all the relative governing bodies involved and World Rugby and just to see what what I can do to help change um coaches going forward.
Working Smarter Under Pressure
SPEAKER_02Stu, I think this is uh absolutely amazing stuff, mate. Um, and I think it's really important that um we actually address it and we come together as a community of coaches and just you know go about the well-being of our of everyone in it. So I'm gonna leave in the show notes here the link you can go fill out this questionnaire. And I think it's a massive thing you can be part of to change the landscape of coaching in this sport, which will flow onto others. And the work Stu's doing and the time and effort to compile this massive document and this massive research assignment will come back in spades for this profession, whether you're coaching as a professional or an amateur part of the game. So you'll find it in the show notes. Jump on. May is the deadline where it all gets compiled into one thing, and from there, hopefully, we can change the landscape of how we operate as coaches. I'll just sum up, as I I love summing up these little um chats, and yours are pretty obvious, I think. But here's my take three takeaways from you, Stu. Number one, coaches are emotional shock absorbers. Now, I think that's a really cool statement because it's very true. They take on the invisible load and sometimes they take it home. And we never sign up for that side of things, it just becomes part of the job and part of the role. I would say, generally speaking, well, more than generally, I would say almost 100% of the time, we don't know what we're doing when it comes to that. We're just relying on our own experiences and just making do the best we can. To have something in place where we could potentially have a system and a procedure that helps that, my goodness, that would be a great thing. Number two, I loved your takeaways from your police time. Three things you said stress accumulates quietly, peer support system matter, and leaders set the emotional tone under pressure. And all of those things are relatable to a coaching profession. Policing has a huge correlation to coaching. Whilst we don't ever want to claim that we're policing a team, we are in that same leadership role and we are thrown with the same stresses and strains that police officers are. So just to be aware that those three things are important in our everyday coaching lives, and just to be aware of them is important. And number three, this is probably my biggest takeaway, and I impressed and implore on all coaches that burnout is not a weakness. And there is a bit of a stigma from the past that it is, that's something you don't want to talk about or omit. But as soon as you do, as soon as you get a sounding board, as soon as you have a mentor or someone you can talk to around what you're going through, you'll realize that this is very common and your research will back this up. And you suggested reconnect with your why. And you can't pour into someone else's glass if yours is empty, which is what burnout creates. So the more you can front foot it, talk about it, a problem shared is a problem halved, and you're pretty halfway there. Stu Edwards, what an absolute pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, bud. Uh thank you very much for this.