Gary Gold: What Coaches Get Wrong With Culture.

If “culture” makes your eyes glaze over, try this: design the environment and make excellence a habit. That’s the heartbeat of our conversation with international head coach Gary Gold, who has led in South Africa, England, Japan, and the U.S. We dig into what truly differentiates winning clubs when talent is close—and why it’s rarely another page in the playbook. Gary reframes culture as daily, observable behaviors anyone can own, from chasing a kick to resetting your attitude after a loss. He shows how to reverse engineer a team’s identity—honoring deep local heritage in a town club or creating cohesion in a multinational locker room—then tie it all back to the people who pay to be there.

We get candid about coaching mistakes, especially neglecting the non‑star two‑thirds of the squad. Gary explains how equal investment in the periphery builds readiness and trust, and why your post‑defeat demeanor silently sets the standard. Coaching, he argues, is pedagogy, not instruction: fewer overbuilt plans, more one‑to‑one care. That can look like home visits, meeting families, and small, sincere check‑ins that compound into buy‑in. Authenticity sits at the core—you can’t copy someone else’s personality, but you can copy their consistency. The stories span Saracens and La Rochelle to Japanese rugby, tying performance to the “man in the street” and reminding us that success is changing lives, not just lifting trophies.

Rugby’s inclusivity—every body type has a role—makes it a powerful teacher. Confrontation is unavoidable, which accelerates growth if leaders set a steady, positive tone. We talk marginal gains, renewal, and the habit loop that turns cliches into competitive edges. And we trade “fake it till you make it” for “embrace it till you make it,” a mantra for honest buy‑in that sticks. If you lead teams, coach athletes, or care about building environments where people thrive and win, this episode will sharpen your process and your purpose.

If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a coaching friend, and leave a quick review telling us the one habit you’ll change this week.

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Transcript

Welcome And Framing Culture

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Why on earth are you gonna walk into work, you know, with your head slumped down and a grumpy, you know, grumpy old ass if you're doing what you love doing, you know, because no one's put a gun at your head and told you you've got to coach, right? You know. Coaching is is the pedagogy of it's it's the ability to teach somebody to change their behaviors for hopefully for the better. You know, at any one given time, two-thirds of your group are probably pissed off at you. It it it it is it's chess on steroids. It's it's strategically a thinking man's game, and it's physically tough and it's mentally tough, and and it's gonna throw you the same curveboards that life will throw you.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Gary Gold. Gary has been coaching at the highest international level for over two decades. To name a few teams, the Springboks and the Sharks in South Africa, the USA Eagles in the English Premiership, Sale, London, Irish, Worcester, Bath, Newcastle in Japan, Kobe, and the Japanese national team. World Cups to grassroots clinics and rural communities, Gary's done it all. And part of a very small group who's been able to do this coaching craft for so long, for so well. On his LinkedIn account, it says, quote, in my opinion, rugby is more than a game. It's a metaphor for life. Through its highs and lows, it teaches us to shape character, build culture, and develop champions both on the field and beyond. And that is a statement I couldn't agree with more. Gary Gold, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Thanks, Ben. Thanks again for inviting me. It's good to be here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Gary, I couldn't think of a better guy on this show to talk about culture. So I think we'll just get straight into it. And how do you define culture?

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Um, yeah, I think I've said to you before, um, maybe before we even get into that, you know, I'm I'm nervous of that word, culture. Um I I I do in essence believe that it's critically important, but I think um perhaps it's probably worthwhile understanding what culture means, because I think it means different things for different people. Um and I and I think probably more around environment is probably the word I would use that would would create an environment that that would then lend ultimately to to a decent culture.

Environment Versus Culture

SPEAKER_00 2:40

But um again, I think I think there's two different um understandings of this. It it could be the culture that you're in. So, like for us, for example, being based in Japan, there's a very strong desire and and need for us to respect the Japanese culture, so to speak. Um, but but then obviously, you know, as an example that we've chatted about before, you know, if you if you're looking at a French club or a European club or an English club where you've got a uh you've got a licorice all sorts pot of South Africans, Aussies, Kiwis, uh, you know, Englishmen, a couple of Welshmen that they may be signed, you know, then it's less about perhaps the English culture or the French culture, and it's more about that environment that you want to create within your within your own organization and and and what what is that environment that you want to create and and then why, you know, and um and and I think if you if you're able to try and identify that as a group, you know, then then it lends itself for you to being able to create and then the culture is is not necessarily a rural culture or or geographical culture, it's more about the culture that you want to create within your team, which then starts to talk about behaviors and and what are the behaviors that you guys as a group or an organization as a team want to want to live every day that's then gonna hopefully build that culture. So I think you need to in many ways reverse engineer it. So understand what it is that you want to, what what is it at the end of the rainbow that you want to create? What does that pot of gold look like? Ultimately it'll be success. We understand that, but but why are you different from the other 14 clubs in France, the other 12 clubs in the UK, or you know, the other 18 clubs playing URC or super rugby or whatever it is, what what's gonna make you different? And I think that's where the challenge comes in because I don't doubt that in every organization you go to, they're gonna want to be aspiring to that. But I think the skill really is how how you're going to achieve that and how you're gonna achieve it better than anybody else. Yeah, the quality of your play is obviously important, but we're talking about behaviors now, you know. We're talking about things that um, as they say in the cliches, that you you you you um you know, their behavioral habits, you you you you don't need to have talent to be able to do them. You know what I mean? And so much of rugby is about what you don't necessarily need to have talent for, you know. So issues are about working off the ball or how hard you chase a kick, how quickly you determine to get off the ground, which then means uh how much time and energy you prepare to put into your levels of getting fit enough to be able to execute that skill. So you can de you can dive quite deeply into that and then understand actually a couple of action points that that will then lead to that. You know, and hopefully that then has a reverse um ultimately that that then has a reverse effect on on the behaviors of the people within the club and that that's seen in the performances.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah. I think it's a really cool analogy, what you sort of talked about, that kind of the there's a difference, right? There's when you go to like you're talking about the French clubs where it's like almost like a melting pot. There's lots of different ingredients where you go to Japan and it's just one pot, just one ingredient. And so it's just it's just assessing where your team is, isn't it? On a spectrum of what is a need? What do you are you creating or are you just yeah. And and what what are some obvious ones or clear like you've obviously talked about the different nationalities in those teams? Is there any other uh things behind the scenes which can add to whether you've got a melting pot or a one pot for a culture?

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Um that's a great question, actually. Um look, I I I think I mean you just use the analogy now of Japan, for example. You know, um it it's not to say that they're not other cultures playing there. Obviously, Aaron Smith's a Toyota, and a couple of, you know, uh Richimwanga, Toshiba, there's there's there Peter Steff's also a Toyota. There's a little bit of a melting pot. There's certainly different, there's certainly different folks from different countries that are playing in Japan. But ultimately predominantly the the makeup of the team are Japanese players. And and ultimately there's very strong roots within the Japanese game. And the Japanese heritage is uh well culture, actual living culture is a very strong uh force within Japan rugby. So it's more about the foreigners fitting into the Japanese culture, whereas I'm not necessarily sure if you go to some of the European clubs that that's necessarily the case. You know, I've I've seen and been at clubs where there's been a

Melting Pots, Heritage, And Identity

SPEAKER_00 7:50

very, very strong South African presence there, and almost the club is stared a little bit more towards um dying every night. And I'm I'm I'm I'm being flippant about it. But again, you know, you um I'm not sure the identity, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm not saying it's a bad thing in any way, shape, or form. I'm just saying that the identity sometimes shifts a little bit. I mean, Saris were, you know, for for many years were were um had a very strong South African flavor to it, you know, and you know, had the Mickey taken out of it, but you know, at the end of the day, that worked for them, you know. That, you know, they they I definitely don't think the South African flavor had anything to do with their success, but somehow they stumbled on a recipe that they all wanted, they wanted to use that recipe. You know, that was the recipe that they wanted for success, and they all bought into it, and they showed a very good example of how you how you can bring you know the sum of so many different parts together and be able to create something, you know. And and and the Ceres model is an interesting one for me from a cultural point of view because there wasn't a a toulouse-esque type of heritage behind the club. You know, club has been there for nearly a hundred years, the entire town or city is centered around them. That wasn't the case at Sarres at all, where it where it is in very many clubs in France. So there you can you can hang your hats on that. A Bayonne or Biarritz or uh a Toulouse, I've given you, is a is an easy example. But a lot of those clubs, Pépignon, for an example, you know, they're those town clubs, you know, you can, you know, those clubs have been around for a long, long time. You know, they've produced epic players over the years. That's a relatively easy um base to start off and and and reason as to why you want to um fulfill the people of the city, give them hope again. La Rochelle did it, Rona Nagara did it, LaRochelle for a number of years as well, where the city got behind it again, spirits became up. You know, um in Cape Town here uh they talk about making Cape Town smile again, you know, that kind of thing, you know, where they where they they link it back to the the man in the street who ultimately is is is the reason why they're there. Ultimately that's the reason why you're there. You know, you're there, and in today's day and age, it's because that person's paying for you. So it's really, really important to to give back to that. And and and so I'm probably going on a little bit, but I think you need to uh identify that every club is different. And Sarri's, for example, going back to what I was saying there, that they maybe they were around for a long time, but they certainly don't they don't have a whole city or a whole town that you know hangs on everything that they do. You know, they're they're a little place in the north of London, you know. But they created their own identity, you know, and they then devised what they would call their own culture, you know, for whatever worked for them.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

I think that's what you just said the link it back to the man in the street. I think that's a pretty um that's a pretty good summation of what the different types of culture is, because it just got me thinking about like other factors for culture is things like your your social economic status, your education levels, your your health, your age, your gender, the weather in certain places affects the culture, right? Like if you've got um smart people, like it's a you may be a university team, it's a very different culture to say you know, a a not so well educated uh team. It's uh there's there's a lot of factors, right? Which then if you're not aware or privy to that, it it it affects the way you treat the man in the street that supports those teams.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Absolutely, and and again, I I have a sense that sometimes people might roll their eyes at that as a statement, but I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I think it's very, very important. Um, and I think sometimes um teams and organizations will lose sight of that. Even even I've necessarily I I have seen even the owners of that particular club would lose sight of that. You know, he or she, the owner might have their own agenda at at the forefront of of their agenda, so is to speak, you know, why they bought the club, why they want the club to be successful. Um if if it's more about them and less about the people that support them, you know, then I I think they may struggle ultimately in terms of being able to be successful. And similarly with the players and the coaches and the support staff, you know, if it's more about them or uh again, I use the easier analogy, and that is that you know, if the player is genuinely only there just for the money, it's gonna be very hard for he or she to be invested in or or vested in actually building a culture that's gonna that's gonna make a

Serving The Community And Fans

SPEAKER_00 13:10

difference. You know what I mean? So um I think I think, you know, I mean you're seeing it nowadays, a lot of the clubs that uh that are genuinely um that are genuinely committed to wanting to create that type of an environment will will will have an interview process with you and will ask you a lot more questions about, you know, what does it mean to you? You know, what you know what difference do you want to make in it in a different country or in that club, or you know, why would you want to come here? Why why do you want to why do you want to live here? You know, Cape Town's a really interesting example. A lot of people want to live in Cape Town. You know what I mean? Well well, I think if you're gonna come and play for the stormers, it it might it might mean that something more has to happen, other than you just wanting to necessarily live in Cape Town. You know, if you you're gonna have that privilege of being able to live in Cape Town, or in your case, Sydney, or whatever the case may be is, you know, what more are you going to be able to give to the Warrior Towers, you know, if we are going to offer you that as an opportunity? Because ultimately it it is about what all those individuals are going to be able to bring to the party will collectively, will collectively, I believe, you know, then be able to lend itself a lot better to creating that culture or that environment that's going to be successful. And then as we alluded to, you have to identify what that's going to look like. And that's going to be in your behaviors. That's ultimately going to be in your behaviors from the minute you walk into the club to, you know, possibly the minute you go to bed that night, because your behaviors will be, they'll be exhibited in your dietary habits, in your sleeping patterns. You know, is it important enough for you as a professional athlete? Because you might be only one of 15 who's going to start, or one of 23 who's going to be in the squad, or maybe even one of the 55 in the squad, but you're not even playing that weekend, but you've got to realize I've got to be ready in case the call-up comes, am I ready to put my best foot forward? So you can unpack it quite deeply. Um, if you understand where I'm going with this, Ben. You can unpack it quite deeply and then understand how every person's role is critically important for you to make up the sum of the parts.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yeah. I guess the question to you, Gary, but how do you what's your definition of success? Like if we're working towards success with a culture, what is what what what is what is your one?

SPEAKER_00 15:35

I I I feel that success for me is um genuinely when you can make a difference in other people's lives. So not not not only um not only in the supporters' life, because that's that's the extrinsic, if I could call it that. So you as a player have the ability to make a difference in somebody else's life. So whether that's that six-year-old kid who loves rugby or 10-year-old kid who loves rugby and thinks that you're a hero and he's coming to watch you, or ultimately yourself. You know, do you want to be part of an organization that, you know, will leave a lasting memory in your mind and will change your behaviors and your habits for you to become a better person? So maybe I didn't necessarily have those disciplines before I joined, I don't know, anybody, Northampton. But when I got to Northampton and I bought into what they're about and it got me to change my behaviors, then I felt that I became better for it. Whether that's healthier or morally more in check, or I I that part, you know, I'm I'm not sure I'm qualified to. I'm not sitting in judgment of what I'm not sitting in judgment of anybody of what that looks like. I'm certainly not. I'm just offering you, um, I'm just offering you an idea, you know, of what that ultimately could look like. But I mean making a difference, you know, and and and and I don't mean that in a in a flowery my word, you know, I'm gonna change the world the way Mandela did. You know, no, I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about um acknowledging that there'll be people there who you have an influence over, you know, um uh acknowledging that you could have an effect on a person who I don't know, if changed their habit, and then one day when they have kids, they're gonna be a better parent because of it, or a better husband, or you know, whatever. Whatever. Just a better person, you know.

Values, Buy‑In, And Daily Behaviors

SPEAKER_00 17:50

I mean, because the world bloody certainly needs that, you know. So and and rugby has that ability to do that, you know, because we we are that metaphor. We we it it it it it is it's chess on steroids, you know what I mean? I mean, it's strategically uh a thinking man's game, believe it or not, but it's also rugged and it's tough and it's physically tough and it's mentally tough, you know. So it's a great and and it's gonna throw you the same curveballs that life will throw you, you know what I mean? So, and on and off the field, you know, so in and out of your home. So within your family environment, you're gonna get curveballs thrown, and outside the family environment, you're gonna get curved balls thrown, you know, ultimately. So I'm I'm saying if you see it in two two secular areas, if you see it when you're playing rugby and you're at the heights of your life and you're in your twenties and you're living life to the fullest and and enjoying it and playing rugby, which I hope you're doing it because you love it, then you can use that as an opportunity to to help um, and I use the word educate you, but I don't mean educate you as in, you know, give you a degree or or or a qualification, but educate you in terms of and certain certainly rugby did that for me, you know. I I played rugby at school and was never very good, but then I had to go to the army for two years. And all of a sudden, by default, not by design, I ended up getting fit because I was in basic training. So I didn't have a choice but to get fit. Then all of a sudden, rugby became a completely different sport for me. Now I could actually play the game and keep up with people next to me. You know what I mean? And and now I saw it in a different light. Now I thoroughly started enjoying it, you know. So, um, and then and then I started realizing, well, you know, now that I can make the team more often and therefore I can contribute a little bit more often, then hopefully I can enjoy it more and and then buy into what the coach was was trying to achieve for us, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

I think that's a really cool awareness you just bring about, particularly around that army reference, but also make you a better person reference. Like that kind of concept that your environment rubs off on you and you rub off on your environment. So it's it's a it's a it's sort of a win-win if you truly buy into it, right? You're gonna get the benefit and the environment's gonna get the benefit, which is then gonna circle back around to get you even more benefit. So Yeah, I've never heard it put put like that.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

And not everybody can be the king on the chessboard, you know. Predominantly most of us are pawns. You know what I mean? But I mean the pawn is still a particularly critical element in in the environment, in the ecosystem. Uh, you know, in our case, in in the rugby club. You don't necessarily have to be the leader or the one out in front. You know, you can be the quiet guy that, you know, doesn't necessarily look for praise, but you know, he'll be doing the extra gym session at night, or he'll be, you know, I'm getting silly now, but weighing his food at night before he eats it because his skin folds have got to be a certain level. But, you know, they are those guys, you know, and they're critically important, you know. Everybody has a role to play. You know, and they they often the the ones you follow more so than the louder, outspoken leaders. You know, they're the ones you think, ooh, I like what he's about, you know. I like what he's about. You know, he's quietly gets on with the job, you know. So it's different strokes for different folks, but again, we're bringing it back to ultimately your original question, and that is how do you create that environment? You know, how and and I think the first thing is awareness. I think we you need to create that awareness within the group. Um, the group meaning everybody, not just the players. Critically, we are there to serve the players as coaches, in my humble opinion. I believe that. Um, and so the support staff, but that doesn't mean that the support staff don't also want to get job satisfaction and also want to feel um a part of the journey and and need to be recognized and need to be appreciated as well. You know, I mean, some of the support staff, you know, physios and team managers, I mean, they work. extraordinarily hard, you know, for very little reward. You know what I mean? So again, it's just it's it's it's not excluding that one group of people is more important than the other, because because you know the the whole mechanics of the organization needs to work on the rely relying on everybody to do their jobs. So um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Have you have you ever I guess one of the questions is have you ever made have you made many mistakes around the cultural piece in your career

Defining Success Beyond Scoreboards

SPEAKER_01 22:30

that you're prepared to share like when you just had a shocker around something?

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Oh I'd imagine heaps I'd imagine heaps of mistakes. Um definitely no question of about early early on in well maybe even players might feel later on in life as well. Definitely within the within the club environment it's pretty easy to be focused on the match day 23 and if you if you consider that let me take it back a step that can open you up to a lot of criticism for being a hypocrite so you can stand in front of the group at the beginning of the season when everybody's doing preseason and you've got a squad of 50 players 55 players and you start preaching this culture and and this is hurdles I would I would I would warn against because I've made these mistakes myself. You're preaching about what the culture should look like and pre-season it's fine because everybody's the same everybody's going to be doing the bronco and everybody's going to be doing what they need to do in the gym and you know going to be doing the tough uh S and C sessions because we're getting a fitness base, etc, etc. But then when the seasons start there's a distinction because you are then going to pick the team that's going to play and you know at any one given time two-thirds of your group are probably pissed off with you because you're not because they're not playing. Two thirds of that of your entire group the two thirds of your company are not happy with you if you think about it that from a business point of view. So surely you should be spending at least as much time with the players that are not playing that you are doing with the players that are playing so that a player on the periphery still feels that he's being given the same time and energy on his development than the player who's playing. Arguably you could you could argue that the player who's playing is going to get his 80 minutes. You know he's going to get the time and attention from the coaches for that team. It's how much time and energy are you spending on the players who are on the periphery because the reason they're there because at any one given moment you you might choose to select them or there might be an injury or a myriad of things could happen that would mean that they're going to come in you know and you know if you've just ignored them for the first six weeks of the season and then all of a sudden you're now sitting down with them and having that you know that earnest one-on-one and going look what I really need from you this weekend and he's sitting there thinking I haven't spoken to you in six weeks I haven't even seen you for six weeks now you're asking me to come and produce for you on the highest on the at the highest on the highest stage you know and and I think those are mistakes we've all made them but I certainly have there's no question of a doubt about that. You know that's just that's just one that springs to mind you know but um again depends on how deep you want to dive into it. Please Ben I'm not professing that I've got this right in any way shape or form I'm just we're just talking theory here but again player welfare is a critical area. Well then player welfare means player welfare it means across the board. And again I'll use the same example you know um the guy who's having personal issues at home shouldn't be given preferential treatment if he's playing that weekend as opposed to the guy who's having personal issues at home who's not playing. You know so it's it's it's a very it's a it's a it's a very um it's a fine line you you tread there because just understand the minute you stand up in front of the group as a coach or as a leader or or whoever you are and you you're wanting to um instill those values if we could call it that let's just say it's a value based thing. If you want to instill those values you flip and have to walk that road yourself you know and I think that's maybe maybe maybe I could sum it up and say that's probably the biggest road is that I'm not sure I've necessarily always walked those values that I've preached. And that's hard yeah yeah and I haven't meant not to but I haven't done it. Do you know what I mean? I haven't gone out and and and you know flicked a finger at well you know I don't I don't believe in what I'm saying. I probably probably in my own mind I have believed in but then I've let myself down in in in players' eyes that and and you can't be everything to everybody all of the time I appreciate that but you know there's at least there's got to be steps that are put in place that that try and negate that you know what I mean and so it it's it's difficult. It's almost like the the more the more you ask of the player or the more you ask of the environment the more is going to be asked of you if that makes any sense. You know what I mean

Roles, Pawns, And Quiet Leaders

SPEAKER_00 27:20

because because you're almost setting yourself up a little bit more for you know the ultimate cynic to find fault in in what you do. So and that's that's the that's the tough part from a coaching point of view. I think so you know I do think that that is the case you know because um ultimately it's going to come back to you you know if if you're gonna ask that of your players you know what wh why shouldn't they ask that of you you know so difficult for difficult for you to tell the player that he's got to do you know you know is he properly prepared for a nine o'clock training session and is he there at seven and has he eaten properly and is he doing his prehab properly and then you saunter in at 10 to 9. It it's difficult. It's difficult. And and I and yeah answer your question I think I have made those mistakes definitely not not consciously but now looking back at it subconsciously definitely or now that you've brought it up you've made it conscious. So thanks for that yeah absolutely massive huge I I there's such a strong argument for where we get it wrong as coaches so often and and and that is firstly around the X and X's and O's because I think we spend so much of our time overcomplicating the game that doesn't need to be overcomplicated. And if you think about that and you think about how many players you're trying to initiate that particular week and how much analysis are you trying to do and how much information are you trying to throw at players in a particular week as opposed to maybe spending more time with as I I I've used it before the sum of the parts which is the individuals I think you'll get a lot more of a return you know um uh and and and as I say you know that it's harder but that goes much much harder but that goes for the individuals that aren't necessarily playing you know what I mean that you need to be spending the time with um and and you know I've heard um I haven't done it so you know that I'm not gonna sit here and profess that I ever have but I have heard of coaches who during the course of the season will will ask to be invited to the players' homes for dinners and will make a pla a a way of going round and at least going to every player's home to meet the wife to to meet his wife to meet his children to see his home life to see his environment and just to be able to sit across a dinner table with his family so that when he sees that family in the players and wives box after the game he can walk up to them you know he can he can he can he can sincerely though he has to be authentic about it he can sincerely ask the kid you know how did your school project go that you were working on that night or you know how did your music recital go? Again Ben I just want to say yeah that I I want to be very careful about painting this picture in a fairy tale I'm not I'm not at all trying to do that I'm I'm I'm saying like if you genuinely invested in your players then then you've got to make those those efforts. I'm not saying everybody gets it right and and I know they don't you know God alone knows I I've got it wrong a lot more times than I've got it right. But I I do think though though when I've heard those stories and I've heard that that coaches have taken that time and energy to to do stuff like that it means a lot it means a lot to the people it means a lot to the family it means a lot and you know you get you get a lot more of a buy-in to your corporate culture because ultimately that's what a rugby club is a rugby club is you know for that period of time that's your place of work you know it it might then be in an accounting firm if that's your passion after and you do your articles and you go on and be an accountant well there you're gonna

Awareness Across The Whole Organization

SPEAKER_00 31:40

have to go nine to five every day for the next 20 years of your life. Do you know what I mean? Why why should that environment not be a healthy environment for you to go and work in or you might go and be a physio or you might go and be a doctor or you might go and be a fitter interner. You still want to go to work and and get some form of job satisfaction do you know what I mean so so sometimes it's good to to peel the skin back a little bit and and go, we're just running a business here you know and how how how how's the business going to be successful? Well we we believe the more you win the more people will come that's predominantly true to the game the more they come to the game the more income is generated the more income is generated the the better we can be as a club and the the more we can improve so um again it's to understand all of those things to then see why it's important to make the effort to make that business as successful as you possibly can be and and and you know there's a guy called Tom Peters who who wrote one of my favorite books that's ever written and I'm again I'm not a big reader at all. I like reading but I'm not a brilliant reader but he wrote in search of excellence you know and he spoke he he in search of excellence was written comfortably over 20 years ago but it it it it talks about five different business environments you know it talks about an iron and steel factory it talks about a baseball club and it talks about FedEx way in the early days of FedEx uh talks about a retail chain store um called the limited and he just talks about how five completely different business environments are top of of the chain in in in in their business sphere in their market sector and and that's the same question you should be asking Europe club you know how do you how do you become the best in your market sector and it and it ultimately always comes back to how you treat people it is basically what he's saying. That's what Tom Peters is is all about you know he talks about how you treat the people so in the iron and steel factory the the man or woman who does sweep the iron filings off the floor in the morning because the factory then has to be pristine to start work the next day is as important as the engineer who's you know I don't know writing code for the machines to be able to do the job that they need to do. And I I know he's written other books other than in search of excellence but you know if you follow him today he's he's now a man in his 80s and he's pretty outspoken about you know issues around USA uh certainly politics but definitely business as well um and he's he's he's a guy I've learned you know you learn a lot from yeah sorry we should be back there we go perfect sorry mate that was just a yeah funny glitch in in my end but it's it's fascinating that that sort of stuff mate and it sort of all comes back to like like almost a repeating circle on a lot of the stuff like the the the the stuff you put in here will affect that which will affect that which will all come back to you and that's kind of that's kind of a little bit part of what you're talking about that um there's rugby as a tool for life isn't it because it's such a broad spectrum game with so many different people right it's awesome I I I I agree you know and and you know I've seen I'm sure we all have seen the analogies

Mistakes: Neglecting Non‑Star Players

SPEAKER_00 36:20

being made with other sports as well and other sports coaches and you know John Wooden famous basketball coaches you know have spoken about that um uh Phil Jackson has spoken about it as well slightly in a different way because he's a little bit more zen oriented and you know when he created it the Tiger Bulls and then the Lakers but but where I I disagree respectfully with them is is that so many sports so many sports require a very specific type of athlete so um it's gonna be hard of guys of your my height to play basketball at the highest level it's not impossible but it's it's gonna be hard. Do you know what I mean? Predominantly anybody under 6'5 is pretty much ruled out um athletics is exactly the same you know if you're a sprinter you're gonna you're predominantly gonna be of a specific physique um if if you're a hockey player if you play field hockey you're gonna be of a specific physique you're gonna have do you understand rugby isn't like that we throw that that right out the window you know you you you can be bigger heavier and stronger and there's a place for you you can be diminutive but particularly quick and there's a place for you you can be tall and fast and there's a place for you you can be tall and slow and there's a job for you you know so that's why um the the and and then the nature of our sport is is mentally and physically so confrontational in so many ways that even if you're not a confrontational person you can't avoid the confrontation it doesn't necessarily have to be emotionally confrontation con uh a confrontation but it'll be a physical confrontation because it is that's what rugby is you know so um it again how however you deal with that confrontation is is something that's going to teach you in in in life and now you've got all shapes and sizes um from any walk of life can play the game there's a position for you male or female now which is amazing yeah and um and you're dealing with all those variables which is mental physical the nerves um etc etc and and again as I say we could unpack this to silly proportions and I don't think you want to but but do you understand what I'm saying? I mean where whereas other sports are very limiting in terms of well there is a there is an athletic uh prowess that you need to have before you can play in that sport you know whatever that sport is um whether that's you being a swimmer or an athlete or any of any of the other sports that we've listed we've mentioned before whereas rugby sort of breaks the mould on that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

And it means you can like with the right sort of mindset and application you can actually you can make it in rugby to a high level even if you don't have you know some of these key markers in other sports which you need correct because it's an HR game.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Definitely yeah how does that affect your leadership um Gary like obviously you're a you're a you've been leading in this space for a long time um how's your leadership journey gone on this and what's your sort of philosophy around how the way you lead as a coach in this environment um it's definitely changed um over the years and and it would be quite concerning I I think if it hadn't changed um and again dynamically as well if if you consider when I started coaching my my my first professional if we just use it from professionally not even when I was coaching the amateur days the first professional club um I had two players who both were internationals interestingly enough coincidentally enough who are both older than me that I was coaching and and now I'm still coaching a rugby team and there's no ways that anybody's going to be older than me in the rugby team in fact I'm coaching guys who I played with their fathers so that's not a fun uh reality of life to have to deal with that is the reality of life isn't it that is the reality of life so I I genuinely could go for beers with the guys in 2000 or 2001 because they were of my same age group I I had a lot in common with them off the field. The fact that I may have been the coach on the field but off the field we could still be buddies. Our wives were the similar ages our kids were similar ages so we would socialize together and I could deal with that well I I imagined I could deal with it maybe I couldn't but but you could deal with that at the time now they the the players have zero interest in socializing with me and and the feeling's probably pretty mutual. I don't necessarily know if I want to go and have a barbecue with a handful of 20 year old kids. And and I don't mean that disparagingly you know what I mean I the that that gap that grows the whole time means you move more from the the coach role that you're a colleague to more the coach role that you're the teacher you know and and um because that's what ultimately coaching should be you know should be about hopefully teaching or leading or guiding or whatever word you want to use you know um coaching is is is not instructing and and I think that's where we get it wrong a lot of the time you know telling a guy to do something and barking orders is not coaching. You know um co coaching is is the pedagogy of it's it's the ability to teach somebody to change their behaviors for hopefully for the better. Do you know what I mean? So that's so that's where you you and and I wouldn't have known that at 32 years old or 33 years old when I started coaching. You know I would have had to have learned that over time and and hopefully you know by by also wanting to expand my own horizons and learn more myself. Because I didn't I didn't go to university to to to learn how to be a teacher and and and funnily enough Ben that's why so many teachers end up being such good coaches because they actually are formally taught how to deal you know I mean te coaching a professional rugby team as as a as a teacher probably is very similar to you having to teach a a university or or a a high school

Player Welfare And Walking Your Values

SPEAKER_00 43:00

um science science class or maths class I would imagine.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

How how have how how how have you got better at it like that coaching is not instruction. How have you got better do you reckon in what in what ways?

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Well one of the things is is is definitely self-improvement from an education point of view you know I mean one of the very very lucky things I was able to do is my early coaching years were all based in the UK and you there was a very strong sense of coach development within the UK at that stage. Certainly my most recent years there I didn't I didn't it wasn't exhibited that there was that much of a passion. But in the early 2000s the RFU were particularly ahead of the game in terms of coach education. So we were regularly at any one period of time being invited or asked or To apply to go in some form of coach education. I mean, I ended up doing what they called a level five coaching course, which was hosted by the RFU, which was a 18-month, two-year course, you know, which, you know, I'm I'm very appreciative that I was able, especially as a foreigner. Remember, I was a foreigner at that stage in that country. And, you know, their their philosophy and an incredible coach educator, uh guy by the name of the name of Kevin Bowering, who subsequently passed away. He coached, Kevin coached Wales in the in the early 80s, but just a phenomenal, phenomenal human being. And as a Welshman, he had been employed by the RFU to help with coach education. So the RFU at the time took the best coach educator. At the time it was Kevin, and he was he was um uh commissioned, use of a better word, he was commissioned to educating the coaches within the English game to improve the English players. So it didn't matter if there happened to be a foreign coach, they wanted the coach to get better because they wanted the English players to get better. So they wanted them coached better. So again, I was a beneficiary of of that as a system at the time. So it wasn't I I can't sit here and take too much credit myself. I was very lucky that I was in an environment at that stage, and and I did. I took advantage of that, you know, there's no question of a doubt about that, you know. So, and you know, I think about the guys. I mean, I'm I mean, my level five course, Stu Lancaster, was an academy coach at Leeds at the time, who was on that course. Phil Davies, now the director of rugby for World Rugby, was on that course, you know. Um, you know, those those are just two names that I can remember at the time. You know, Ollie Redmond was on that course. Uh Nigel, Nigel Melville was in that course, you know. So um I did a course at a business school called Astridge for a while, where Wayne Smith was on that course. Wayne and I were on that course together. So it was there was another course that we did that the RFU put together called X Factor, where um Sean Edwards was on that course, and Sean, Sean and I were actually partnered together. So these are guys who've gone on to being great coaches, you know, a lot better than me. So, you know, so these are the and they were all young coaches at the time who were also benefiting from that that system, you know what I mean? So Stu Lancaster went on to coach England, you know. So um, and he was an academy coach at the time. So, I mean, it it you know, it definitely reaped rewards for the for those coaches, you know, there's no question of a doubt. So I think I think as a coach, there has to be a real desire to um your own personal improvement and wanting to get better, and know that you can, you know, you can deliver a hell of a lot more to the players if you if you are also determined to be on a trajectory of self-improvement.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

I just love that that sort of concept there that just you s you were sort of referring to the fact that you just got your timing right, where the there was a big push for rugby education and advancement. Um, but it is amazing where just that little bit of sentiment providing something, a little bit of care towards someone like a coach, and just the the the flow on impact that has. And then I guess we go back to as a coach, the the little bit of care we can have for individual players in our environments can have that real effect. We talked a little bit earlier about taking that little bit of time to just focus on an individual now and then can actually exponentially in ways you don't even know, later down the track improve your right. Like this is the the tool of the sport and a lot of sports, but this one particularly, I think it's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Exactly. And and and I think anybody watching this or even yourself now, if if you took a moment to reflect on, let's just take something that's hopefully going to be pretty commonality for everybody, school, which is your school that you went to. Wherever you went to school, in whatever country is irrelevant, think of a teacher who had an impact in your life and and ask the question, why? You know, then then go back as a coach and say, Well, do you exhibit those same traits that made him or her impact you in your life? You know, and that is just recently something that, you know, again, by default, not by design, I've recently had to do. I didn't have to do it, but I you know, I was encouraged to do it. And I thought about it and I thought, wow, um, never thought about it like that. You know, there there was a there was a teacher that I had who had an impact in my life. He happened to also be a sports coach, but that's sort of in a way, neither here nor there. Um, but he was my teacher. He was my my my maths teacher. And and uh, you know, and and then the

Keep It Simple: People Over Playbooks

SPEAKER_00 48:50

question was, do I exhibit the same attributes that because I wasn't his star student, and I certainly wasn't his star sportsman. So why did he have an impact in my life? Do you know what I mean? And I think it was again just because of the way he treated me. You know, he just treated me like everybody else. That that in an in and of itself was probably more to me than than anything else, because because I wasn't the exceptional sportsman, and I wasn't the I certainly wasn't the the the most talented student, that's for sure. So um, but you know, the way he just created like a vibe within within the environment, the way he created that vibe, the way he um he genuinely looked like he enjoyed coming to work every day. You know, he had a positive spin on everything. You know, he was infectious. He was infectious like that, you know, and I've worked with people like that. Brendan Fent is like that. Do you know Brendan's like that? He's he's an infectious individual, you know. Brendan, very difficult to get Brendan down, you know. It's not difficult to get Brendan down. It's not Brendan, it's not difficult to get Brendan angry, but it's difficult to get Brendan down. You know what I mean? He he's yeah, you you you see the same guy arrive at work every morning, you know. He's always a positive, enthused individual, loves rugby, and you can see he loves it, you know. And well, why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you? I mean, uh, why on earth are you gonna walk into work, you know, your head slumped down and a grumpy, you know, that's right. A grumpy old ass if you're doing what you love doing, you know, because no one's put a gun at your head and told you you've got to coach rugby, you know. Well then you should bloody enjoy it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

Correct. Well, I think that what you said there, your little journey about like what think about what teachers made an impact on you and why, and then try to do those things. And I'll just comment on your comments. Like you talked about the maths teacher had a massive impact on you, and you didn't say anything about the multiplication formulas he taught you or the algebraic solutions. You talked about things like the way he treated you, the vibe of the room, the positive spin. And I've actually got a quote from you which I thought sums that up. You you talked about um consistency of culture are more important than any playbook. And that's essentially what you're saying about that teacher. Like the mass that he's teaching is not actually what he's teaching you, really. It's not what's sticking and staying with you, is it? It's these personal, interpersonal things, which is the real gold as a as a teacher, as a coach, as a leader. Yeah, those are the gold things, aren't they? And that's even more so in rugby because it's it's a it's a chaotic game where it sometimes the X's and O's are irrelevant. It's just an attitude or a feeling or a desire.

SPEAKER_00 51:33

Exactly. Exactly. It's funny that something you've just said there that's that's triggered me to wanting to give you a response. It's I I I don't actually even especially remember a personal interaction with him and I. There wasn't one interaction where he put his arm around me or gave me a comforting. I can't think of that. It was more, definitely more the environment that he created, that it was an environment I enjoyed. And because it was an environment I enjoyed, um, I didn't enjoy maths at all. But I but but he he had a way of making that class a fun class where they and I can't especially remember. I mean, it was 40 years ago, but I can't, I I I don't especially remember him being a particularly funny guy. I don't I don't I don't say he cracked jokes the whole time. He was just a positive dude, you know, he was just a positive guy, and he he it was difficult not to feed off his positivity and his energy. And then it made being in his company enjoyable, and unfortunately it just happened to be in maths, so it made me want to work harder. But can you imagine if you're in an environment that you do actually want to be in, and it's a positive environment, and it then stimulates you to you wanting to get better. Do you know what I mean? So um, yeah, again, just at semantics, maybe I'm I'm I'm saying I'm not saying go and be like that person, because it again, I think the authenticity of you as an individual is also important because players will definitely see through if you're not being who you who you actually are. But I'm not saying go and be like that person, but certainly take the lessons from you know what what created that environment for for that individual. So so I'll I'll try and relate it back to to an example of of maybe what we're talking about. Yeah, I'm I'm not saying I could be as enthusiastic, perhaps, as what he was every time he walked in to teach us maths. But I could consciously be aware that I do love what I do, and so therefore walk into work every day with a smile on your face. Do you know what I mean? Whether maybe the result the day before didn't go your way, well, you have to move on in any case. You don't have a choice. So again, now we're getting into the whole thing of how hard are you working on the areas that you can control versus the areas that you can't control. And I know this, I know this is really cliched, and I know a lot of people have spoken about it before, but how do you put it where it stops becoming a cliche is when you actually put it into action? You know what I mean? So, so when I'm driving to work in the morning or walking to work in the morning, if if I am in a bit of a mood and I am pissed off about the result the day before, how do I consciously change that to present a better to present a better um not look, but a better, a better demeanor for the players because ultimately I want them to get over it as much as I need to get over it. And we need to work on how we're gonna fix it, as opposed to dwelling and sulking for three days after, which I did do. You asked a question earlier, you know. Again, I mean I I actually do remember we did 360 feedback at a club I was at, I'm happy to say well over 10 years ago now. But one of the things that came back was, you know, my demeanor after a loss affected the group. It did, you know. I mean, I wore now, now, if that was because of my selfishness or my ego at the time that you know I was maybe the one copying it on social media, you know, get rid of this clown. He's a joke of a coach, you know, that's not fair for me to then take that in to work

Coaching As Pedagogy, Not Instruction

SPEAKER_00 55:30

the next day. You know, I I almost, you know, and we we spoke about it off air earlier, you know, about you know, all the qualities of Eddie. You know, that's one thing that I love about Eddie, you know, there's there's a lot of things I enjoy about him. But you know, the one thing that Eddie is like it's water off a duck's back. People can have their opinions, you know, it's not going to affect how much he loves his job and how how he's gonna come to work. And he's all he's always he's always in a good space. You know, he's always in a good space. I'm not saying he doesn't get upset by um poor performances or lack of effort. Of course he does. Of course he does, you know, because he's got very, very high standards. You don't get to three World Cup finals by accident. You know, he's got incredibly high standards. But by and large, he's actually a really positive guy. He's a good guy to be around. My time was working with Russian Russi was the same. Russi is a he's a he's a positive guy, you know. He he he is a he is a funny guy. He he he you know, he he he likes creating a fun environment, you know what I mean? That you know, where there's a great balance between work and and play, so is to speak, you know. So it's an in it's an enjoyable environment to work in. Um and I think I think that that gets underestimated. It just so happens that those two individuals are particularly good at the X's and O's as well, but I think they get that balance right. Their balance is particularly good between the X's and O's are critically important because strategically the game has now become a real thinking man's game, but they still create an environment that's an enjoyable environment to be in.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Yeah. Oh my geez, Gary, you've just said a whole lot of things there, which is just worth repeating a couple of them. I just love that phrase you said, like uh you won't know the impact you're actually having. And like you're talking about you don't remember specifically what the math teacher did, but that's important for all coaches. And you talked about like the demeanour after a loss, you don't know how that's been received, and you probably won't ever know, but it it's sinking in somewhere. It's like with your kids, right? Like if you're acting in a certain way, your kids are mirrors of you, and they're gonna pick up and it's gonna sink deep. I just think that's that's a cool one to remember. And you also said it stops becoming a cliche when you put it into action and you're conscious about it. I think that's a good habit. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

A habit. Yeah, when you when you can create a habit out of it, then it stops becoming a cliche, you know, or it may be a cliche in other people's minds, but you know, I mean, as they say, you know, ex excellence is a habit. So if you genuinely want to strive for excellence in that particular field, then it needs to become a habit. You know, excellence is not a one-off. It's it's it's not. And I mean, you you would remember the I think it was Woodward who coined the phrase after 2003, you know, we didn't do one thing a hundred percent better, we did a hundred things one percent better, do you know, than anybody else. So again, that's his saying, not mine. I didn't come up with that at all. But I liked that. You know, I did like that. And maybe it's not a hundred, maybe it's not a hundred. Maybe it we did ten things ten percent better. Do you know what I mean? We didn't do one thing a hundred percent better. Um, because because it won't always be one thing, but but it it again, I spoke a little bit about I I I am scared of words like culture because I think they can become cliche. I'm scared of cliches because b because that's what they are, they're just cliches. But if you if if you have a desire to to generate generate excellence in that field, then then it needs to become a habit as opposed to a cliche. You know, and and and then you can it it should be bespoke. It should be bespoke for what works for you in your environment with your team at that particular moment in time, you know. Um and and I've seen teams who've been successful again. I I've only seen it at a distance because I've never worked at Sarri's, but you know, they had a, you know, they they did have a dynasty in in as much as that, you know, they won a handful of premier premierships um in in a period of time and went on to you know win Europe a couple of times. And and I'm quite sure, you know, their foundation stayed the same, but they they would have they would have re-looked it themselves, I have no doubt, every two or three years and just gone, okay, like what what are, you know, what are the ten things we need to re-look at? What are the ten things we need to push the boundary out on and and become better at? Because if because if they're the same ten things as they were the year before, and we improved that by one percent, we're gonna have to find another one percent to improve it now this year, because everybody else is gonna catch up to you. So again, it's it's it's always that it's always that notion of of always trying to stay one step ahead of the game.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:24

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's also interesting because we um we you said something off air uh about sometimes this sort of stuff, this cultural stuff, if nothing's done, if it's just words, then that old school way of thinking comes back into the equation where the old school way got results, do this, do this, that author author authoritarian type style comes back into oh well, at least a one got results. But that's only if you're not putting the effort into that one percent is for your culture, right? Like you do that, it's gonna pay off, pay off really well in the in the short, middle, and long terms, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:00

100%. And and that that here's to burst the bubble. You know, that's not the that's the hard part. And it's the hardest because it has to be done more repetitively. You know, it can't just be done for a couple of weeks of preseason

How Coaches Learn And Evolve

SPEAKER_00 1:01:20

and then you know the shine comes off it. That's the hard part about it. And I think that in a lot of in a lot of cases, look, Ben, I mean, we must we must be honest here. You know, I mean, ultimately there there's other factors at play in terms of successful teams. I mean, a group of better rugby players will win more than a group of of less better rugby players. That that is true. I mean, let's not BS anybody here. That that is if you go out and you've got buying power and you end up buying the best rugby players, you're giving yourself a much better chance to win more often than not. But we're talking about now when squads are relatively balanced and on paper, you know, anybody could beat anybody, then then you're wanting to find the edge. That's that's when it's really, really important for you to create something that somebody else hasn't created. And that requires a lot of effort and a lot of work, and and that's that's the differentiating factor, in as much as that the the people who are prepared to put that consistent time and energy into it are the ones who I think will ultimately reap the rewards. And that's where it's hard. That's really where it's hard. Because in theory, it it's fine for us to talk about this now. You know, we could run a couple of workshops or people could run workshops on culture, and you could come there and you could be energized, and for your first couple of weeks, you could go out and you know preach it to your team. But it it's you somehow gotta you gotta link it back to behaviors that you can exhibit every day because you have to live it. You know what I mean? And and I think that's why it's harder. That and that's maybe why it's spoken about a little bit more, because it's it's harder, it's harder to actually implement.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:05

Yeah, yeah, mate. I I think a lot of people would agree with you on that sentiment that it is a lot harder. Now, in that light, Gary, it's been an absolute pleasure here. I've got one more question to keep this to a pretty consistent hour-length podcast. And it's the question we asked at the end, mate. And I love your opinions because I'm sure you will have something which sparks the brains of those around you. And the question is this what's something you believe in about culture or leadership or rugby in general that you believe that you believe your contemporaries or peers might well disagree with?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:40

Love to hear your thoughts. Um that's a great question. Um I may be pushing my luck a little bit here in trying this one.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:03

There's uh there's um I've heard coaches.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:03

Oh, I love that. Embrace it till you make it instead of fake it till you make it. It's actually absolute gold. It just means you're like leaning into it, right? Like as opposed to pretending you're something you're not, you're actually understanding what you are, and you're doubling down on that fact and making things to shift that. I reckon that's a lovely uh little bit of difference there. And I think that's a lovely phrase. Embrace it till you make it, not fake it till you make it. Now,

Rugby’s Inclusivity And Confrontation

SPEAKER_01 1:08:30

Gary, uh, we've got to that time where I would just like to take this moment to wrap this up with my three takeaways from this awesome episode. And I could actually talk for ages and ages with you, but it's time. Number one, culture can be a cliche, and you're you said you're actually scared of cliches. But the thing that you're imitative with is it stops becoming a cliche when you put it into action. And if culture is important to you, you've got to be conscious about it, about building or nurturing it. Do that one percent every day, and your reference, it's not easy because it's got to be done repetitively over and over again. But if you do that, you're never in depth jeopardy of a cliche becoming just a cliche. You add action to it. Number two, your environment rubs on you and you rub off on your environment. I love that. It's a bit of a yin and yang give and take. The more you ask of your environment, the more it asks of you. And so you've really got to walk those values. Understand that this culture thing is a give and take, it's not just you getting something out of it, you're getting something back as well. So always be a good mirror about what you're doing. And number three, coaching is not instructing. What a bold and awesome statement. Coaching is pedagogy. Learn to change behaviors of others for the better. I absolutely love that, and that shifts the focus away from just getting up the front and telling people to do stuff. It's a process about changing behaviors for the better. And there's multiple ways of doing it, and there's lots of variations. Gary Gold, what an absolute pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today.