Dark Moments Build Great Players. Joe Rokocoko

Ever been told to start at zero? Joe Rokocoko has—and he calls it the sentence that rebuilt his standards, his respect, and his career. From a Fijian village to Parisian match nights, Joe opens up about the unseen work behind greatness: how culture lives like a village, why tone matters more than volume, and what it takes to make the dark zone feel like home.

We go deep on the soul of French rugby—why stadiums are packed, how small towns treat game day as a family event, and what Racing 92 is doing to turn a reputation for flair into a ruthless defensive identity. Joe shares how he coaches across cultures with precision and care, adapting delivery while keeping standards high. He explains why a GPS can’t measure team spirit, and how knowing when to push two more minutes can hardwire timing, trust, and belief that last into the 81st minute.

This is a masterclass in modern coaching and leadership: blending data with feel, using simple rituals to lower resistance (shoes by the bed, plans that remove friction), and anchoring everything in service. Joe’s father taught him that leadership means sharing hunger and thirst with your people. That lens shapes his approach to feedback, role clarity, and identity—ask what opponents feel when they face you, then build habits that change that perception from the inside out.

If you’re a coach, leader, or player who believes sport should shape people, not just results, you’ll find tools you can use tomorrow: questions that build buy‑in, language that respects culture, and themes that light a fire on fatigue’s edge. Press play, then tell us: what’s your team’s real identity under pressure?

If this resonated, follow the show, share with a friend, and leave a quick review—your feedback helps more curious coaches find us.

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Transcript

Welcome And Joe’s Journey To Paris

SPEAKER_02 0:00

When you're in the dark zone, that's when the growth comes. I don't care what you've done in the in the past or who you are, but yeah, you start zero with me, and I was like, those light bulbs went perfect. But having seen a GPS that kind of measures your team spirit and your attitude. We proud ourselves for Jones as being quite um respectful. But if you're gonna embarrass him in front of everybody, um you know you embarrass him like that, he'll just confidence. He's gone. Um rugby is just to help us. There's a place where you just practice your reps for life. Whether it be your whether it be your standards, whether it be treating people, whether it'll be working under pressure, whether it'll be dealing with setbacks, everything. When we're hungry, you're hungry. When we're thirsty, well, you're thirsty. When we need help, you need help.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Joe Rocotoko. Joe is an absolute icon of the game, one of the best outside backs ever to play. 17 years as a professional, 96 games for the Blues in New Zealand, 98 games for Bayonne in France, 87 games for wrestling in France, 68 games for the All Blacks. Record breaker. His 17 test tries in a season is still a world record. International players named him World Player of the Year in 2003. Nowadays he is coaching at racing in France, the club that has been a huge part of his life for the last decade. He has four children, three of them born in France. Joe, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Tizbet, thanks for having me here, bro. Um following your podcast, I think I'm uh under satisfied to be here, bro. I'm under I don't have qualifications to be in this uh little podcast, but I appreciate the chat.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

My friend, you do not need any qualifications at all. Your experience speaks absolute volumes. Now, just off air, you you said how privileged you were. You're from a small village in Nundi. Now you're in Paris. How cool is that when you stop and just reflect on that sort of sentiment?

SPEAKER_02 2:07

That's uh that's the blessings that you you see around uh being in Paris. Uh I think, as you mentioned, you all of a sudden your village, uh the road, a little village on the way up to dinner hotel for you, local Fijian tourists. They're making making my way down out to South Auckland, up in Manriu. Then obviously career picked up, and now I'm just so grateful that I could be uh in the middle of in Paris in uh little Place Robinson, a little uh suburb in the south of Paris, being involved in a team that uh it's the longest team I've been involved with professionally. So um I've been long been here longer than uh been with the Blues. So it's a team that's really grown into me, and I'm just so grateful that I'm a part of this team.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

That's absolutely awesome, man. And and how's your um um assimilation into French life in France? And what's a culture like over there for those that haven't been to France and haven't played rugby there? How's that how's that culture treating you?

SPEAKER_02 3:04

It's mad in terms of rugby, it's rugby mad. Yes, I you know I enjoyed my time with the All Blacks and the career I had back there was is awesome. But a bit of myself said, man, I wish I came in two years earlier because of just the love of the game. It just hasn't changed to where we knew what the game was all about as a kid. Just the following of the small towns, the communities. So in the top 14, where most people might not know, we have the two big the two northern teams, it's us and our rivals, uh Stade de France, Stade France, sorry, the pink team, and everyone else is in the south. And all the other teams are the south of France. So they're all there, everyone in the south are just rugby mad. So if you do a road trip from the north and you go down south, you see soccer

Why French Rugby Is Booming

SPEAKER_02 3:50

posts, then eventually see convert into rugby posts. And all those people down there in the south of France are just, you know, you have one souvenir I can take from being here is when I was in Bayonne and I used to wonder why the funding is so big. But when you look at the stand, you see all the different generations of the family come to the game. Uh it's an event, it's a family event. Uh, there's no other event, uh, which brings a bit of a bit of flashback for myself when playing in one-month rugby. You you have your 10 o'clock games as uh you're on the trolls, uh watch the seniors about uh after lunch, and you get ready for the All Blacks Test match afternoon games, you know, back. You know, it was just uh the custom, it was was a tradition, and the traditions here is too big in terms of of the rugby in general in France.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah, and why is it still strong, isn't it? It's just growing and growing in France. Like other places in the world it's it's it's tapering or or it's on a knife edge, but in France it's not, is it? It's it's going strong.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

It's going strong. You're getting stands filled up, like Bordeaux, for instance, the the past well, majority of their what 95% of their games have been, you know, the 30 plus full. 30 plus and the stands are full, despite if you're a big team or a small team. Uh Blues, obviously. Uh we'll probably be the only team as not as full because being in Paris, rugby doesn't have a real big following. We're having to compete with other sports uh with around the city. Uh you got to see your your football, your your handballs, basketball's quite big here too. So we, President had to be figured this thing out of the box, and we uh he created a beautiful stadium which is La Defense Arena. So it's a closed-off stadium. Now when it's rugby, you got your artificial turf and uh then it can be lifted out and there's a concerts. He said uh it got lights and everything. That's so biz. So we said, okay, if you don't know rugby, but you like entertainment, we'll bring you to the game to Paris. So he kind of brought that concept in. And so he had we we gained a few supporters just because of the atmosphere and the feeling of being in a close stadium and lights, and there's a bunch of guys trying to kill themselves, and you get the following of more player people in Paris. So it's yeah, it's it's still it's massive here. Another interesting fact was when the French football team had a game, the last two games they've had in France, they've had more viewing in the rugby games rather than the football team. Um, so we've had more French players, uh French people watching rugby than actual French football team. So um you can see the interest has gone up and uh yeah, we're we're just loving it.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

And and the passion is strong, isn't it, for rugby? Like people just uh and and then that suits the game of rugby because it's a passionate game to play, right? So the sort of every stereotype of a French person being that passionate person is is very true with rugby, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:38

That's very true. Because your whole family's connected to the club. It's your old school general philosophy of what rugby club's all about. You know, it's your small communities, you drop everything on the weekends and you, okay, we've got a game. Whether you be a plumber or a doctor or engineer or whatever, despite what status you are. I still remember that in my local club, sitting in the car park, and you just see different vehicles pop pop pop in, drop their kids off. Guys coming on the bus, some guy comes in a beamer, some guy comes under you in the truck. Uh, you got a van full of 12 guys, but the seats only 10. But you know, mate. But you when you come into that little clubhouse, all your status and where you're from doesn't count. That's just the community living and support, you know. What bigger purpose than the individual, you know, or where you're from. And the history here is so massive. Um as and that's why the foreign players who've come these past few years, they said, man, that's so awesome. Yeah. You know, you go to one who who chant you some hostile places. I was quite lucky I didn't understand Fred's for the past three years. Well, still trying to understand now a few of the words they came across, but they just rugged me mad, which makes this uh game so colourful at the moment in front.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Yeah. I actually heard you say when you talked about status doesn't count. I heard you say when you went to Bayonne that the coaches told you, I don't care what you've done, you're you're here now, something to that effect. And that's that's almost epitomizing. You're you had this amazing all black career followed with uh international recognition. You get to Bayonne, club sign, they say, Oh, we don't care what you've done. Status doesn't count here. Does that joke?

SPEAKER_02 8:10

That's so true. I had a difficult moment because I um I just missed out on in the World Cup in 2011. And the thing is I couldn't leave early in case of those injuries.

Community, Status, And Belonging

SPEAKER_02 8:20

And uh so there was a few a month there that they were waiting, and I thought I was a month late to the club. So in between that window, you know you uh you still hadn't gone through that disappointment of missing out. Happy the boys won. I was actually there at the final, just very emotional because of the pain is finally healed. Then then realizing two days after I had to fly to France. So I went across there, I went across there, wasn't physically fit, mentally sharp, played for the last five or six months of it. I was just floating, you know, so comfortable. Uh from then I just regret I didn't realize what I was going through and didn't address it. But it was affecting my way of training and my way of playing to the very point that uh my last two games when I got come in and that my home crowd was booing me, bro. So I was really booed. Yeah. Uh to that very, very point, and uh it got me because my my wife and my my one child back then was at the stands. They didn't know about it. And they uh took me back two weeks after we were pre- uh were flying back home, and I was like, how did I get to this point? Then I realized I was so focused on myself then rather than these people invested a lot of money in this club that has so much history and rich history that they expect people to add, you know, to add something into uh their identity. And I came in and just didn't do it. And I was like, well, I deserve that. And there's that saying that we always say an A B is once an A B and always an A B. How was an A B. How was that? How was an all-black training then Bayon? He wasn't trained like an all-black. He didn't have a mindset of an all-black. So they had a self-look in the mirror kind of moment. Told myself going pre-season, first and last, I'm getting booed. Before I get the respect of the crowd, like get my own respect for myself, I was just close mouth, just work head down. Uh, and then I'll get the respect for my players because of how I trained. And then the coaches will get my respect, and then I win the crowd by just the way I perform. By the end of that season, the last three games, uh, we had the crowd cheering my name flip a little head through. But um the big turning point, as you said, was uh Christophe Deloup, he was the number 10 that uh was part of the French team that scored the best try of the world or something from Eden Park.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

And he was the one uh I met during preseason, and he uh first thing he said, Do you know who won the last team that won Eden Park? And I was like, Yeah, I will never forget that game. But one of the tries, he goes, Yeah, I was the guy that started that play. Yeah, you know, started that counterattack. I was the last one. I was like, where's this going to? The dude just said, All I want to know is this is the first time I'm talking to you. And I I don't know, I don't care what you've done in the in the past or who you are, but yeah, you start zero with me. And I was like, this light bulb just went perfect. I just needed someone just to give me a boot and uh bring me back down and and start fresh. And I said, Okay, I'll I'll I'll do my ways to do as much as possible to get your respect.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

You start zero with me. It's a powerful statement, right? What yeah. What do you think? Well, what you was going like I'm really intrigued on this, mate, and it's important for probably coaches to realize what players like the impact of being dropped or not selected actually sinks pretty deep, right? It's not just oh okay, fine. It weighed you down, right?

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Like it really the big thing, like obviously uh the connection part of the the human part is the biggest part. If you think of well, yes, we we coach how to pass left, how to pass right strategies, but we're really life coaches in in so many ways. Rugby is just uh just a tool to get us into one step ahead in life, you know. Um rugby is just to help us as a place where you just practice your reps for life. Whether it be your whether it be your standards,

Starting From Zero After Setback

SPEAKER_02 12:20

whether it be treating people, whether it be working under pressure, whether it be dealing with setbacks, everything. There's a whole big mix of things that you go through as a player. And the part of that as a coach is you helping and guide those people to work under those circumstances or under the situations. And the other type of is dealing with 43 different personalities and bringing them to one course. But uh, the main thing for me is the connection part, which you get to know your players. Here, for example, we have Fijians, Tongan Salmons, Georgians, obviously you're Frenchies. We've got a guy who plays for Chile, Argentinians. Imagine the room. I'll speak to a Fijian guy different to how I speak to a French guy in terms of the tone. The mesh is the same, but it's the way the process of delivering it, I'll I'll change my tone and the way I'll speak to these guys. Because I've obviously Fijian, which is gives me a bit of uh one step ahead. But always and also being here in France for a long time, you know what makes them tick.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Well, what's what's some of the examples there? Like what is the difference between a Fijian and say a fr a French player? What sort of adjustments would you have to do?

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Adjustment is the tone, how you say it. We we pride ourselves, Fijians, as being quite uh respectful. But if you're gonna embarrass him in front of everybody, by the way, it's yes, you have to show videos. Uh for example, you can show a Fijian guy and be honest, guys. Why are you useless? You look lazy. You know, you embarrass him like that, he will just confidence, you'll you'll be he'll be out of the he'll be out of the room. He's gone. He's gone in terms of spirit, he's gone. But another way is Fijians or islanders deal with feelings of they're so proud of their culture, and all they want is to make people proud. So the the way of giving your questions will be like, you see, we said we're gonna do this, but I didn't see you there. I didn't see you into the line. And I had confidence you're gonna be there, but you let me down. One tone, words, disappointment, and they'll feel the worst ever. Because it's like your parents, because you're so respectful to your elders. You don't need to be, you know, pulling your hair out and throwing tears or whatever, which is which I've got to learn now, which I didn't actually know. It was a bit of a bonus that I had uh in the pocket when I got into this opportunity as coaching. You know, you come as a player, you were raised in New Zealand pretty much. I still have my Fijian kind of core and background and coming over to France and seeing how they work. You know, French is you can be direct and be hard. But then I go, look, I'll show you that because I just want you to improve this, because I'm okay for you. I just want I need you. And you go, okay, okay. Because they'll work through emotions, you know, they'll very have that lad and blood.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

You know, because I need you. When you tell them I need you, I need you, you can hit their guys like because you're a little guy that's aggressive, blah, blah, blah. And they'll, you know, you can get them, get them emotionally connected to what you're trying to deliver, um, which I've slowly tried to uh, I think use that as my role with the club at the moment. I guess when Patrice, this new coach, Patrice came on board, Telezo, he said, um, I want you to sign on again because you bring the balance in terms of I need I don't want a French. I don't want another foreigner, I need someone in the middle who can help me weave between because he's straight. He's from zero to one hundred. He's like, wear your helmet before the box start flying across. But he's um you know, we're wears his heart on the sleeve. But he's such a a good manager in terms of people. So I'll know where my place is. Sometimes you question where's my place? Am I uh am I a drills guy? Am I a presenter guy? Am I what's my place in this team? Which I've always asked the president before signing, what what can I add? Just sign me out if I'm gonna add something, but not just another person on the room.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

No, I think that's really a fascinating awareness as a coach is to ask that question, what's my place in a team? Like, I don't think people ask it enough. Like, knowing that there's range of range of options there, isn't that? You you don't have to be all-encompassing if you've got a coaching team of three or four. You want difference and you want people with different perspectives. So to actually ask yourself, what's my place here? Where's my value? Where's my strength? What do I love? All those questions is is almost like a coaching one-on-one, don't you think?

SPEAKER_02 16:40

It's it's your your prime examples of the coaches I I've been with, with obviously Ted, Shag, and Smithy, you know. Totally three different. You know, you have your Mr. Miyagi with Graham Henry, just all wise and wisdom, you know, just looking over, just putting the puzzles together. Then you got Shag, dry humor, just gives you a little nudge on cringe questions. Were you good enough today, kid? I don't think you were, you know, but he gives you a question, that question's in your head. Shucks, did I give enough? Yeah. And then he walks away with a smirk, you know, but uh, and then you got Smithy, the the you know, the bone deep, Smithy, the purpose, the cause of doing things. And you have the mixture of that with uh Gilbert Anoka, who just you know gels the team together in terms of harmonizing a group together. It's a perfect mix. So I've learned like in like in in so many ways what I've had a lot of life coaches, which my coaches were my first ever coach was uh son of the 12s and Weymouth rugby. Because uh his name was uh Mike Robbins. Not Mike Robinson. Yeah. Um, but he had this massive beard, uh tattoo in his head, tattooing his arms, always came with a vest, ripped jeans. And it was 12 years, I was 12 years old. You know, every single word was a square word. Uh it was before the drill was one word, another drill. But he was so ruthless, you know. He was like, oh, you know, tsunami, rain, shine, hell, you're gonna come to this club, you're gonna train, we're gonna train hard, we're gonna train you to the ground. I was like, oh. And his he had two sons were in the same team, and he used to tell this other son to get the other sign, and they would just tackle each other until they cried. So I

Coaches As Life Coaches

SPEAKER_02 18:30

was like first seeing that as a kid, it was like, wow. And then we lost the phone, and then he said, worst ever speech, he said, You're the worst ever kids I've coached. You know, and the kids are crying in the change. I was more shocked. But it gave me a lot of resilience, tough toughness for some reason. Because in the end, we the following year with the majority of the of those boys we won the titles in our age group because we put this heart skin, you know. And then we obviously throughout the years you come up with your different coaches who who who are totally opposite. But uh I I look back, I look back then and the majority of people or the coaches that I've been involved with, like we've been under, I was like, wow. You know, he uh school boys Joe Smith, you know. He was the one in telling me outside, inside lines, bounce, all the smaller details you're learning, I don't know, back in 2002, 2001, you know, of of how to change angles the last minute with your shoulders or hips, lying with your body. And then you went up my first super rugby team of uh Ted and you Peter Sloane Sloaney, uh Bruce Robinson fits you as a manager. Then throughout those years, you know, it goes on the list, but in terms of the amount of quality coaches of who I've gone gone under, and uh now I've learnt a lot from each of those coaches.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

I think it's amazing, mate, that you're referring to like you had a obviously a stellar uh career and you're still talking about the coaches that coach you when you're a young kid and just what they left, the mark they left on you, like your 12-year-old self, uh a hard ass coach, stayed with you and stuff you learnt back then. So, like I think that's cool for coaches to realise that the impact they they leave isn't just the X's and O's like you talked about, but you are life coaches. That coach taught you, that Mark Robertson taught you resilience and and gave you a thick skin, even though at the time you're like, wow, this is hard. You look back on all black career and go, he actually helped that process, right, with with his intensity and things like that. I th I find that kind of incredible.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

And when I asked and you got Titcher as well, you know, Titch was, oh my gosh. You know, we heard all the stories when they're young. I I had came to a a point that I was I was lucky enough, I was still in school when I got selected to be an Auckland 17. And uh and I had a shock of a game because I'd been in New Zealand Schoolboys' 19s in the age groups, and the sevens was at the end of the season, and I just wasn't in the mood. But I got selected and I don't know why I'm chosen, so I played up, played horrible. An old man gives me a little speech in the in the van because he invited the Rallies to come and watch the game in Albany against Harbour. He said I was walking around, I and you're a lazy boy. You know, we all came to watch. I was like, oh, if you don't want me to play, I won't play. You know, the old stubbornness, but I was just knackered. Uh I didn't like servants. Anyway, there was a North Island Champs, uh, North Island competition happening. And my old man kind of thought about what he said, and he came the next day and goes, Son, if you want to go, and I came, but if you don't, you're tired, uh, you can stay. Or maybe whatever you choose. Uh so he played your mind game, so obviously I did the opposite. Give no dad, I'll I'll go, I'll have a crack. So Went into that competition and at the end of that competition is to play in Palmer's two North, the national champs, seventh. They named the team, and uh I didn't have much of a good tornado just floating, just doing it for the sake of the old man. And uh they named the squad, the the big all big initial seventh squad. And it's the first time in my whole life I was so happy I wasn't selected to be in a representative team. I was like, oh, that didn't make it. I was so happy. And my dad was like, don't worry, so next year, oh yeah, that's okay. Don't worry, I was and uh and they said we gotta name another three guys. He's gonna be in the extended like foot-to-cover injuries, and they named my name. I was like, oh no. So in terms of where I was mentally, of burnout, then to be added on to Titus' training camp at the end of the season, but there was a moment that I appreciated the most because it was the training. It's your it's your little window of okay, it's the difference of saying, I've got this, I'm gonna make this and grow from this, or the window's past time, doesn't wait for anyone. So

Coaching Across Cultures

SPEAKER_02 23:10

I just said, okay, I'll take it. And the first test was it was remember Tony Kunbayu? Yep. Yep. So we done the phosphate test. And we were like spreading two or three, and I still remember Rashi watching us guess, okay, let's see these young kids go. But obviously he knew uh our speed was just gonna get slow. It's lower. Yeah. And uh we did all the other tests and the trainings that we did, I was I was gone. But I had built this little resilience of the training, like we I mentioned before from the old coach. That was still, even though I wasn't the fittest, but I'll take that extra step to finish it. You know, I still uh wanted to prove myself to the point my quad. Just because I was a dead my my quads are really tight, but I didn't want to show Art's young kid he wants to pull out because he after an hour or thirty of training, we he doesn't want to do the last uh 15-1 handies to finish off. And I done uh when I learned from, but I still remember Craig DeGoldie. I was it's all in the head, Rox, it's all in the head. And this whole thing, Russia said, you know, when you vomit in training, if you're a newbie, so he'll titro carry on the training until the the newbies will vomit, and then you know it's okay, we've done it. A lot of things came out that there's in terms of resilience and toughness to taught me so much in terms of that area. Repetitive speed.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Isn't it amazing, like um, when you when you hear those stories about like the hard things, whilst they're hard at the time, they're actually teaching you amazing life lessons. This is where the value of the game is. You talked about rugby as a you're a life coach, and whilst you're getting people to do some some some ridiculous fitness activities there, what you're actually teaching is life lessons about persistence, resilience, determination, grit, all these things which are amazing for outside of the game, you're doing it in the game. And not all sports, I don't reckon, you you get that. And and this one is a team combat sport with some pretty intense physical requirements, unlike anything else in life.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Exactly. And I'm quite fortunate that we've been that war like going into that transition in terms of the professional how you know going in from 2003 and the Pro was a high of the pro, you know, era in terms of professional rugby and fading out into this last part or when you have a lot of GPS and you got and we me and Fred always uh you know, give our trainers uh a headache when he says two minutes, or what, four minutes extra, you know, because you as past players you get the feel the feeling of the you see the body language, but you get the vibe of the boys are uh actually investing themselves here. You know, they're feeling it. The numbers when the opponents of numbers is not in this very moment. The opponents right now is the person feeling real confidence that he's getting his lines right, the boys feel this training is everyone's you know singing, everyone's in timing, everyone's that's that's your money time. When you feel this connection, the boys and then humming, then you go, no top time. Then you can make up the next training. But if you're in the moment when you feel the you got enough experience when you know to balance off what's needed and what's uh when you have to put the handbrake, I know that goes a long way, but yeah, it's it's a hard balance. But in in saying that as well, you've got to respect because you uh they they got a job to they've done all the figures and um the stats and so forth, but you have to give them respect in terms of our trainers and our analysts as well, deservingly need the respect as we, you know, they're important to this group as well, as part of this big puzzle that we're trying to all connect together.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

And I think this is a really topical point in modern coaching, because as you said, there's a lot of change, there's a lot more science, data, GPS, which says a lot of stuff, which is all good stuff and correct, and you've got to pay attention to it. But sometimes there's a belief too, and I I certainly agree with this, you've got to push through the science sometimes because Rugby's not just a scientific game, there's a it's an emotional and psychological game, and you're practicing that as much as the physicological stuff of the body. So, like a GPS data scientist might say, Hey, it's time to stop now, you've run 2.3k Ks. But the emotional psychological side is well, let's keep going because we're gonna learn how to push through when it's really tough, because it will get tough at times, and that's a different sort of practice, and that's again going back to your sentiment around that's a life thing, because it will be tough in life sometimes, and you've got to push through. And it may look good on paper, but but uh the theory goes out the window when you're when you're under the pump.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah, that's the that's the hard balance. But I've even seen a GPS that kind of measures your team spirit and your attitude. So it's when you you get to that point when you're in the dark zone, that's when the growth comes. When you're in the moment with everyone is dead and you're looking at your mates getting up, making an F to get off the ground, that's where the growth GPS can't measure that. That's the part that you visually and you feel within, it's like, okay, this guy's got my back today. I can feel the boys humming today. There's a there's a the the the you know, the air

Data Versus Feel In Training

SPEAKER_02 28:30

is so thick in terms of everyone wanting to work hard for each other, is really here. So those are the parts you can analyze from the back, but you can engage in how the training is going. Because in the end, you want to come off their field better person over the last training, you know. You you you want to every time is crucial, now we know, in in trainings. Uh so are we benefiting the most uh for just staying an extra two minutes? And there was your money time. Because when that money time comes onto the field in the last 81 minutes of the game and goes, no, sorry, my threshold was here because my legs are dead. Uh, I think my GPS normally this is my cutoff time. It's you find out more of the character of the players when they get into that little when they're pushed to the edge. Yes, but it's managed, but but controlled.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Haven't seen a GPS that measures team spirit might be the one of the best quotes that I've heard on this. The dark places is where growth happens. And that's exact I think that's exactly right, mate. It's certainly where socially, when you go through a rough experience with a group of people, uh a traumatic event or a really hard physical exertion, actually come together as people a lot and you connect over something, that shared experience, right? And it's hard to measure the value of like people coming together over something, but in a sport like rugby, it is what the whole thing's about. It's like you've got to you've got to take yourself to a place which you wouldn't experience anywhere, any other part of life, right? It's like you're running over no man's land in World War One. Like you've got to take yourself to a a a mindset which is so different from the office or the neighborhood or the community. It's it's it's like that example, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:08

It's it's cool. It's an example of uh we obviously know as one of our greatest Warblacks, you know, of Richie. That's that's one word, one line that I'll never forget is him saying that uh that growth is to we take it together, we gotta get to that dark place. No one wants to be in that dark place. There's only a few can get into it. That's why there's not many people out there. So succeed because it's so hard. But if we can get a good 80% of us into that little sweet zone, we count our chances more higher than anyone else. Because that comfort place be that dark place becomes so comfortable. You can see it later in your career when you start changing your mindset when there's pressure. I remember my last few years, when the points are real close and uh there's a bit of a break, and you can see the little guys' eyes like real, you know, pressure and intense, but you start looking at us like, oh my gosh, what a game, eh? And then he's shocked because the way you respond to that little moment, um, you know, what a game, bro. A bit of pressure here. You know, you just change their mindset, but that that dark place becomes the comfort place now. You know, there's light, there's I don't I'm comfortable here. I'm comfortable in this moment. So it's um that's the challenge we we try to do now with in terms of the academy players coming up. Because uh at the moment they're getting some ridiculous offers with no merit, with no miles in their legs, or you know, in terms of their career, they've actually not shown anything that paying them by potential, but nothing in terms of the grit. They haven't earned it as much in terms of on the field.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Some great jokes. You that's some good stuff, that quote from Richie McCall. We've got to get to that dark place. No one likes it, but we've got to go there until the dark place becomes the light place. And I think I think just to add on to that too, mate, like coaches, you twist, you twist and teach the learnings in that, right? Like when you're in that horrible place, you're you're sort of suggesting and inspiring the players to think a different way about it. Like, we love this, we love this place, we're good in this, we're getting comfortable here, there's no problems here. We've got a glint in our eye and a and a and smiled up face, uh smile. Yeah, and we're we're teaching the life lesson from that. When it gets hard, we we knuckle down, or whatever the centre may be for you and your people. And you're saying, mate, so you're experiencing now, you're in the the the academy role, or and you're doing a lot of younger kids as long along with the assistant coaching. Are you finding that you're really having to coach this side of stuff to some of those younger players?

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Yeah, it's it's quite a blessing in disguise to be like an assistant slash, you know, in one role so you can observe and and scan things from afar, uh, and to scan people from in inside rooms or in the f on the field. So I was in academy for three years, and my job of the academy boards have come up. So I was assistant now my three years in the professional

The Dark Zone And Team Spirit

SPEAKER_02 33:00

the senior team. So I was an assistant backs coach to Fred Michelak and done skills. Um this year I got chucked in defense out of the way out of nowhere. Head coach goes, you gotta do defense. I want you to do defense. I was like, Patrice, are you sure? I've never this and that's a big responsibility. But in my head, I was I loved defense. I always loved it. And uh what gave me the confidence was because Smithy, he always encouraged me that I was one of those wingers who you know like to defend. And you know, Smithy's loved his defense. So that kind of encourages me to go, okay, I can add something. But um switching that into that role of in terms of encouragement, but using so every Friday's no, like the head coach will give me uh a bit of a window that I could share. Something about defense or a theme or something, like you said, you know, when they get tired, what should we do? So I've gone around and trying to think outside the box to implement those things of who we're all about, uh, as different nationalities. My whole focus for this year is what's racing all about? What's our identity? And everyone just says tack, flair, you know, counter-attack, uh, flash players. I said, you know, that's all we that's what we're known for, but no one knows us being ruthless and being aggressive in our defense. We're like softies, you know, that's what we're known for on our defense. So just giving that question out like that, I was like, shucks, true. Everyone told me here, you would just attack, that's what we do. Uh changing that, carrying on their theme onto this, you know, it's changing our new identity. Just saying we've got our new mindset in terms of we're one of the rugged and ruthless defenders in this competition. For me as a defense, because I know that's gonna not come about overnight, but if I can get to the boys that they can believe the character is the first and foremost for me, and the strategy comes later. If I can, I might be not the best coach, but if I can make the boys believe in a cause and a purpose, they can run through the wall for me, if I ask them. Um and that I can touch up the final parts later on in terms of strategies and techniques and stuff, because every coach here has the IQ of everything, how to tackle properly and does something. But if you can get the engine running in terms of giving them purpose into what they're doing, then you'll be just another defense coach. So they've got to have a purpose and meaning of why they do things, which I've learned from Wayne Smith as one of those things that I've I've taken on board. So that's my role at the moment. And last week we played Bayonne, and they are so hostile crowd. I worked off, I took off one of uh Stu Lancaster, he showed us the Gladiator, the scene when there was a group of them, and there's uh Maximus, isn't it Maximus, the leader?

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Decimus Maximus, father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. I will have my vengeance on this wife for the next.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

I should have told you to come on board and give you the old speech. But uh you know, the whole theme of staying together in a circle, and anyone that comes out is gonna be done, it won't survive. And that was the same theme was beyond going into a crowd. So it's just painting something that the boys can the season is long. How do you get up, how do you get a team up every single week? So that's the that's the I love the challenge of that. Changing words, changing trainings, obviously, but not having having their own same voice, not having to speak every time. There's a saying I would say just speak when you need to speak. If you're gonna add something, add something. Don't make it more complicated by by just putting your little five cents in. That's um, yeah, uh learning in the go. I'm enjoying it, but that's one of the learnings from it in terms of getting the boys in and in, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

There's so much good stuff in there, Joe. Like just to back up what Wayne Smith said, his quote that he says, if it doesn't have meaning, it's meaningless. And I think that's exactly what you talked about. I also loved how you you asked that question, how we perceived. I think that's a really awesome question for coaches to ask their team, even if you do it on and anonymous survey where you just put it out there, ask that as a question. What is the opposition? How do they perceive us? How do fans perceive us? How does a community perceive us? I reckon that's a really enlightening question because you the answers you'll get might surprise you and it and it'll give you as a coach a really good barometer or thermo-regulation of what's actually the perception. And whilst it doesn't always mean it's true, someone's perception of you is their reality. And you know, if all your team is saying opposition thing we're a bit soft on defense, then that's going to give them confidence going into games. So that's something like that's a that's probably a a coaching criteria to work on, right? That's that's a big big thing.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Because I you know this question comes up a lot for myself is like when we first arrived with Chris Mysore, we were signed up with Casey Lola and Ross Philippo, we all signed in the same year, and Desi. And we'll look at we were looking at the facilities, and uh, me and Masi just looked at each other and it's like, what's your excuse here? You got everything here. Why are they not winning? You know, you have every single flash. We used to have a joke. If you got if you invented some new sporting equipment, come here because we'll take it. Because you know, you wanted to get the whole new

Identity Shift: Racing’s Ruthless Defense

SPEAKER_02 38:20

buzz, it is Creo. We have so many things, but it doesn't guarantee you results. So I was thinking a lot about that and asked one of our our young players last year. Um he had been inconsistent in the way he was preparing uh played games. And his attitude wasn't the best. And I just gave him a random coffee talk, and I just say, uh tell me one thing. Okay, you had two doors. You had our door. Okay, if you had to walk through our door, and there's two doors, Toulouse door and racing door. Because I wanted to engage what what are these young boys coming to the academy thinking of who we represent and what we're all about? And he said that if you went walked into the racing door and you saw everything, what would you feel? What would your sense of feeling get? I was like, Fire, flash stuff, cool couches, nice gears, I mean Paris. I was in my head, I was like, oh, what is happening here? But it was good to get a perspective of something else. I was like, okay, okay, I get your point, Junior. It was one of our boys, Junior. Then I said, if you had to walk into the Toulouse door, how would you feel? And I was like, pressured. You know, pressured about what? Because, you know, you have to your their standards are all high and their level of trophies and the things I've heard about them and how they train, how they play. I was like, so those are the two doors. Uh for me, I was going to thank you. So I in my head, that's my goal, is to create something with our coaches. As to before our young boys come up, they need to feel that. What expectations of being in this club's all about? Yes, we have the flashy stuff around us, but it's, I guess a majority of our coaches have been in this uh podcast is knowing identity and actually adding something. The hard part is uh controlling the media, social media stuff when you have young, inspiring players who are looking more of what players are getting, what they have in life, the benefits. They don't show the other stuff, they don't promote the hard stuff, the hard work, everything else. So that's important to actually, you know, get your respect and earnings in a team.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

I think that's amazing, mate. Just sparked me off just thinking about um Craig Bellamy at the Melbourne Storm in Australia rugby league. He has a a two-week period for new for the new players that they have to go do work experience, they have to go get on the tools with with the tradies for two weeks. And the whole reason he does it is just to actually highlight the example how lucky you are to play the sport as a profession. Like you come into a fantastic club with all the stuff, but I just want you to understand this, and he sends them out for two weeks when they first get there to go on the hammers and tools. And that's essentially what you're saying there is like if if that's your perception, if you're here and it's really nice and all this cool stuff, you're not going to that dark place. Whereas getting out on the tools, it's essentially an uncomfortable place. It's a dark place for a lot of professional sports people, and then you realise, okay, I'm not going to take where I am for granted. I'm not going to just drift through and float. I think you use the word float when you transitioned from all blacks to Bayonne in the first place. But actually having that appreciation that I'm here for, how lucky I am to be here, and let's take every opportunity. And and just that's the life coaching you're talking about, isn't it? Like it's a good life skill to build on stuff which gets you through life.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

It's exactly it. And it's something, like you said, the parenting is goes along with that as well. And I want to do that with my kids as well before they want to do anything else in terms of whatever the career they want to choose. But I want them to go through all those labor skills because they'll that'll shape them into them being reliant on themselves really when things uh run up and rely on other people to do things for them.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

So that's some of the tools that me and my wife have spoken about. So we can get them a year or even in a few months of another trade or something. Something's difficult, they can understand what it needs to be, uh to be this certain, um, you know, doing this certain occupation, but the the the struggles and the difficulties of of getting up at five o'clock in the morning, you know, that's that's the teachings I had for my parents. Um I was the first representative team out to make under 16s in New Zealand. And my old man said if it doesn't come easy, so I find it hard to get. I'm not a morning person, bro. But I got it to the point I got to the point that I the hard part is the first two steps out of your bed. Or it's always your first two steps when you do a shout and you turn around. But once you take those first two steps, every step just flows. And I got to the point I had my shoes and I put it next to my bed because I didn't have to walk another 10 steps to take it to my shoes. But the artist pass was the first two steps that I can just put on my shoes. I had no choice. It was up five o'clock. And so my

Meaning, Perception, And Standards

SPEAKER_02 43:10

my parents will go early hours in the morning at five, so they said I'll jump in with them and they'll drive a few kilometers, South Auckland, bro, letting you know, drive, you know, drive a few kilometers and drop me in the same run back home. Love it. 5:30, 6 o'clock. You know, dogs, bro, they're loose. You got a random people riding everywhere. So it's maybe that's how I got my speed from, bro. But anyway, it's like you you just you have that little moment, it's still dark, it's early hours in the morning. There's no one else here seeing how how you're gonna work. You can you got a choice. You can walk when your parents are gone, or you can actually test yourself. That part was a turning point for myself because they kind of built me in terms of the player that I when I found difficult moments in my life, when things became difficult, I turned to that. All you need is a bit of a

SPEAKER_00 44:07

And I I love that as a coaching phrase too. Like essentially by putting your shoes next to your bed, you lowered the barriers of resistance to actually doing the thing you actually wanted to do. And and that's part of a coaching job too, right? Like as a coach is we're part of that process to help lower the barriers of resistance. So you could argue the better planned we are, the the better set up we are, the better uh our chat is that keeps people's motivation up, that keeps that little light burning bright inside someone. That is lowering the barriers of resistance. If you're putting up barriers as a coach, just unconsciously or consciously, you're not you're not maximizing your influence on someone.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

Exactly. I guess the the biggest part is us coaches, like I've kind of looked at it as the most important thing. Yes, we I can coach, I go hard to step and run, you know, run lines, but it's that's the height behind that person that's doing that step. You know, it's that's that's the the height behind those boots who's doing that action uh counts a bit more. Uh that's my philosophy in any way, because um is is dealing with the man, because obviously we know the rugby can only go so long, but if you train that person to be the better person and the best version of themselves, we hear this a lot, but it is true because we uh we can see it more now, how the importance of that is to people in our communities and you know the important people being great examples in their homes. We we see the more importance of this rugby is rugby is just the vehicle to get us to a process that we can enhance ourselves. So it's to create learnings, man.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Do you think it's different in this sport particularly as opposed to other sports?

SPEAKER_02 45:43

I can be biased, but it's uh I guess so, man. That's like I have my oldest son, he's he's he's a big boy, but you know, he's not as agile as my two youngest. But you know, in terms of pressure of be gander, dad played A B, he's played super rugby, the pressure of your kids wanting to do the same as dad did. And I I meant I told my son, look, son, yes, are you doing it for the right reasons? Do you want to play rugby? Um he said, yeah, dad. Um but I said, Look, you can choose any sport you want. I'll be still I'll still love and proud of you. But there's one thing I want you to still take from rugby is your core values and respect that you can take out of from for me in terms of rugby. If you want to learn, so if you want to copy or copy and paste yourself, not as rugby player, but the values what involve when what is a rugby player is this. So it's a perfect place. I know my kids love coming to the club. Uh I'm always here, but they say, Dad, can we go to the club? Because of that, because of the teachings they get from their coaches and the environment that makes them grow. I'm I'm sure any other sports do it. In other, you know, team sports, but this is the variation of different skill sets and different scenarios. It's up the roof, you know. So pretty much this is the only sport, I reckon, but it's being biased, bro.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Yeah, well, mate, I'm just as I'm thinking about it now, mate. Like you think about a lot of sports, there's a lot, like you just take a couple, for example, like swimming, shooting, sprinting. They're all sort of like fixed skill sets, closed skill sets, where, you know, yeah, there's a way of doing it. It's black and white. Like you swim with this technique, you will be quicker versus this technique. This is the optimal aerodynamics. There's a lot of science evolved around some of that stuff. Whereas rugby is a very open skill set game. It's it's there's a huge amount of emotion, there's a huge amount of chaos, there's a huge amount of different scenarios. And so there's not one way of doing it. It's not it's not do it this way. It's there's a whole pl plethora of ways of doing it. And you can do that way so much better with a bit of emotion, with a bit of like with all these other skills, these life skills, if you're better at those, it's going to be better for the game. And I think that's the big difference that I see. That it's it's a it's probably the definition of the most open skill set game around. And it's played by big guys, big girls, sh little girls, little boys, different shapes, tall guys, different shapes. Like from the outset, you look at a rugby team and go, these

Humility, Hard Work, And Perspective

SPEAKER_00 48:10

people are all playing the same sport. But a halfback is playing a very different game to a prop, and a lock is playing a very different game to a winger, all in the context of the same field. Like most sports have, say, a goalie, which plays a slightly different game from the rest, otherwise the other ten players are all playing the same game. So I think that's the that's the joy, I reckon, as a rugby coach, to remember that you don't coach it the same way you coach other high-performance sports. There's a whole different realm, isn't there?

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Whole it's a whole different realm, and each year's different. Oh yeah. Each year's different, you know. You got a whole, probably you get 15 new guys, 10 guys, uh, new personalities, and you know, new guys that come, you need to put them back on the bus and to tell them the vision, and it's it's a whole as you're always on the go, you know? Dealing with imagine how unique humans are. We're all made differently. And every time you're as a coach, you're dealing with these people who enter your doors, everyone's as different. And that's the challenging part, and the exciting part is your connection of that person, despite that person not being the same as that other person, as you trying to make growth in that person. That's uh that's the satisfying part, you know. That's it's the higher purpose than yourself. Because the service I live by, you know, when we we talk about culture and stuff, because I lived by my old man. He was a chief of our village. He sadly passed away a few years back. But I remember when you got entitled to be the chief and uh the spokesman of the the village said explaining his role. And his role was service to his people. And uh there's one few lines that I'll never forget when the spokesman said, uh, when we're hungry, you're hungry. When we're thirsty, you're thirsty. Uh, when we need help, you need help. So it was everything us, him telling my dad that he was there to serve the people. You know, be concerned and be worried and putting other people first. And the service and love it goes a long way when you can, as a coach, you serve people by giving your time, serving them by your expertise. Um, you might not have all the answers, but you can serve them by getting information for them. And that's your role. You're serving other people by betting themselves, uh, and everyone has a you know a part to play, as we say. There's a there's a saying with the you're all part of this jigsaw puzzle, but you see this jigsaw puzzle and you see the vision, what it should look like, but all these different pieces, and your goal is to put everyone into this to form this vision that you've seen, and everyone pays that an important part, and everyone needs to serve their own way to getting this final, okay, this final image, what it should look like. So for for me, service is is first and foremost.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Gee, mate, that's um that's super deep. And that analogy of the jigsaw puzzle, and you're the person that's trying to put it together to create the image is is very good. Norm normally we start the show with the question, uh, how do you define culture? And we we've skimmed over it. Well, we haven't actually addressed it directly, but I'd like to circle full round, mate, if you had a definition of culture.

SPEAKER_02 51:13

My definition of culture, like I thought hard about it, what culture means, and culture is is something what you're gonna um you know, I I try to look in a in a a village concept. Uh you know, what's if you had to enter my village, what do you see, what do you hear, and what do you feel? So whatever you enter my village, you know, there will be people respectful. Uh, there'll be people open-handed, like giving you help, but there'll be a lot of smiley people, so happy people. But you see, despite whatever they have in their village, they're still content of what they have and they'll still help other person, their neighbors within the village. So for me, culture is the service and um enhancing people, but also shaping people. What I mean about shaping people is, you know, constructive criticism, knowing that you're out of line and you're shaping that person to be the better person that you should be. And I think it's just keeping encouraging of adding something into their identity or or what they or their values or what we stand for is a village concept. That's I looked at it as some more like that. So um, yeah. I'm not sure that the answer is, bro. It's a big thing, but it's for me that's culture. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:28

That's good, mate. But uh culture is a village concept. I think everything around the way um villages operate is is essentially what a culture is, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:37

Everyone needs everyone needs everyone. I remember some villages you have your guys who go to fish, but every time that they catch enough, they will share it in the village, you know. It's by sharing and giving. If one passes away inside the village, everyone else outside of the village will help uh monitor the whole week when the visitors who come and and and and see the family who's gone through hard times. If there's a birthday, the everyone else from the village will take a part to add something to make that other person uh not have to think about other things and stress out about other things. So that's I look at more the the village concept in terms of the service and love and care uh and being in a being as one.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

Yeah, man. Well that that's a that's

Lowering Barriers And Serving People

SPEAKER_00 53:20

a really cool one with that analogy because certainly in professional environments, sometimes things like marriages, deaths, birthdays are sometimes met with resentment from coaches who go, no, no, no, you're a professional rookie player, you don't get to go to your brother's wedding. And it's always an interesting debate and it really tests what how you as a coach defines your cultures, right? So like someone's brother's getting married, do you say you can have the weekend off and and go to that wedding? That that is a ethical thing based on how you value culture and yours. And if you're saying yours is a village, then it's a celebratory thing where we celebrate marriages, we celebrate well well, I guess we celebrate deaths and things as well, and and birthdays. And making those little things become part of your everyday being is is important, if if I think. And and certainly with that village concept, it makes it almost highest priority, some of those little milestones. Joe, we've come to that point, mate. It's it's flown by. The the question I want to finish on, my friend, is do you have a belief you hold about rugby or culture or in fact life, seeing we've gone down this route pretty deep on this conversation, that you agree with that you think some of your friends or peers or contemporaries would disagree with?

SPEAKER_02 54:39

Uh it's a hard one. It's a good top question, bro. It's um it's hard to I think the only part when I got questioned in the way I coached was when I was how I was delivering a message, and one of the coaches said I was too nice how I delivered that message and I should be screaming. And I didn't agree with them. I think when you have a because I've the connection work that I've done before that I sh I didn't have to add my volume. If they knew how calm I am, if if I go to a tone that I'm really disappointed, um if you have the respect, if you have the you know when you have the respect in a change room, when you don't need to be shouting and coaches have this connection with players and they you just say something and they'll do it. Yes, you can question, I'll question more their character rather than their efforts, their skill set, the execution of a skill. But uh if I know they're doing if if one coach said, Oh, you should be still hard and the execution is now great and you should be blowing them up, I so I don't agree with it. I know this guy does his skills and he's still trying to better, but if I'm gonna cage him and he loses confidence by screaming at him the next skill that's gonna do is gonna lose his confidence. So for me it was the tone of I know how I should look at it, Benny, but it's the tone I deliver my message. Yes, uh most coaches. I I just think you just you gotta know the the people first before you know which tone to take.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

I actually love that, mate. I think um it's the same in parenting too, if you take um we've briefly touched on parenting versus coaching, and would you scream at your kids for making mistakes? Would you take an angry tone all the time with your kids if they don't quite hit the things they were trying to hit? You probably wouldn't, if you're being honest. And it's in my thoughts the same reason why. Like, is that tone helping them get better or not? And now and then it might be, but on the whole, if it's not you, it's it's not the place to be doing it. I certainly know when I've lost it at the kids, I walk away going, that didn't help. It hasn't helped me or the children either. And it's probably the exact same in coaching too.

SPEAKER_02 56:54

And that's why your values should be all set set and standard from the get-go, from the beginning, because you can always come back to that and question are you doing the values that you promised that you're gonna do for us? And then that covers a lot. That goes deeper than your tone. Because then it shows that everyone else that you're letting everyone down by just that one question. So that hits deeper. Because that'll go in there thick rather than loud voices. That goes bone deep, as many always always say.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

Joe, what an absolute pleasure to have on the Coaching Culture podcast. If I may, I'd like to just sort of sum up my three key takeaways from this awesome conversation. Number one, we uh we're really life coaches. And you said rugby is the vehicle to understanding life better. So you're practicing reps for life, things like pressure, setbacks, resilience, how to take constructive feedback, these sort of things that you are able to get in rugby actually carry through and transcend into life. And I think as coaches, if we remember that we're passing on more than the X's and O's, we're actually passing on life lessons, we take a whole new stance towards what we're doing out in the field. Number two, what's my place in this team? That's a question you said you asked

Culture As A Village Concept

SPEAKER_00 58:10

of yourself, but I think it's a wonderful one that all coaches should ask of themselves. You said, if I'm a coach that can make them believe, then the technique comes second. And I just think that's a lovely way. You said I like to get the engine running. And I think it's important too that we understand that there's multiple ways that you have values on a team. You don't have to be a certain way, but there's a way for everybody and every coach. So to actually ask yourself, what is that way and what's my place in here? And then double down on that sometimes is a great way to maximize your impact as a coach. And number three, I love this quote you said. I haven't seen a GPS that measures team spirit, and I love that. And we talked about the dark places, is where growth happens, and you took Richie McCorm as the example who said, We've got to get to that dark place. No one likes it, but we've got to go there. In the dark place is where we find the light place. And I just think that is a sensational value that we can help instill in people as it's a life skill. The dark place isn't a place to avoid in rugby and in coaching, and in life, it's a place to embrace, take one, two steps, those first two steps towards it, and you'll find the give back that you get, not just in the rugby context, but in life, is huge. And I think it's an awesome one. GPS doesn't measure the team's spirit. Joe, what an absolute pleasure to have you join me here on the Coaching Culturing podcast today.

SPEAKER_02 59:42

Pleasure is mine. Thank you very much.