David Nucifora: INSIDE IRELAND’S RISE

Most teams say they want a great culture. Far fewer leaders can explain what culture looks like on a random Tuesday, or how to build it when pressure is high and everyone is watching the scoreboard. We sit down with David Nucifora, a longtime performance director and high performance leader across international rugby, to get concrete about what actually moves performance: daily behaviors, clear standards, and leaders who stay close enough to the work to feel what’s really going on.

We dig into a deceptively simple idea: don’t consume yourself with bureaucracy. David explains why he chose visibility over a closed door, how “being available” becomes a leadership advantage, and what he learns from informal hallway conversations that no report can capture. From there we get into human architecture, the craft of building systems by selecting the right people, creating diversity of thought, and designing an environment where staff challenge each other without becoming fractured.

We also talk about healthy tension, why it creates edge, and how to keep disagreement from turning personal. David breaks down how he evaluates progress beyond wins and losses, when to back a coach whose results haven’t landed yet, and how a clear North Star prevents reactive decision-making. You’ll hear lessons from Ireland’s rise in belief and performance, plus a sharp reminder that high performance cannot thrive if the community game and participation are neglected.

If you care about coaching culture, leadership, and sustainable high performance systems in rugby and sport, this conversation is packed with practical takeaways. Subscribe, share this with a coach or leader you respect, and leave a review with the biggest idea you’re taking into your week.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Ireland 10 years ago were ninth or tenth in the world. And they didn't actually believe that they could be good. You know, they didn't believe that that they could win things. I can't believe you've never beaten New Zealand. It's about how you put people together to exponentially make them better than what they are capable of being. And if you can get that right, well then you're starting to build a pretty good system. And we're going to be good. Joe was exactly what Ireland needed at that point in time going back to have an emotional team that didn't have the tactics, the strategies, the techniques to be able to perform on a consistent basis. My view was I had to be out amongst it. I had to be in it. I had to be with people. I had to be on the ground. Tension is a good thing. Tension is healthy. And if you if you're working in high performance and you don't have some form of tension, then there's something wrong. Too often I see people not coaching the way that they truly believe in or how they feel it should be done. They're coaching to keep their job. And you're not going to be the best coach you're going to be if you do it that way.

Welcome And David’s Rugby Journey

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is David Nousafora. David has held almost unparalleled leadership roles at the top of international rugby, having been head coach of both the Blues and the Brumbies in Super Rugby, having been GM of Australian High Performance, having been performance director for Ireland for 10 years, winning four Six Nations, including two Grand Slams, and Ireland achieving number one in international world rankings. As of 2024, he is performance director for Scotland. David, welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcaster. Thanks, Ben. Thank you for having me. What a pleasure. Now, my friend, we we start with this question in the show, and you will be a great man with your wealth and breadth of knowledge. Is how do you define culture?

Defining Culture As Daily Behavior

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah, for me it's it's it's pretty easy. I mean, culture's defined by your everyday behaviors. Um, you know, the the saying that we'd often use is you are what you consistently do. And for me, it's as simple as that. It's what you do every day and it's what people around you do every day. And that defines, you know, a culture of a team, of a workplace, wherever you may be.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Does it equate to the leader of the organization or what you do personally, your own habits and things like that?

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Absolutely. Yeah, massively. Yeah, massively. You know, because you know, you you can't expect people, you know, it's the old lead by example, isn't it? You know, so jobs that I would do for me, it's it's about a big part of of of what I have to do is I have to be available, I have to be open to people, and you need to be, I suppose accessible is the word, to be able to talk about things to people on an ongoing basis. And, you know, that way it's the casual chats, it's the it's the the less formal way of of getting to know people, which then you learn a lot about them, they learn a lot about you, you know, you establish the way that you're gonna work with someone. So, you know, for me those sorts of things are really important.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

It's an interesting one, isn't it, about being available as uh as a leader or a coach, because ultimately you've got a lot of people that are under your charge, right? And so how how do you get sort of open up this sort of availability to to a team? You're you're operating in a huge team at the moment. How do you stay available and open with with such a lot of people?

Staying Available Without Hiding

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Yeah, the sorts of job that I've been doing for the last, you know, 15 years or so. Um, you know, you do have you have a lot of people at your you know that that you're responsible for and you need to work with. And you could sit behind a desk and consume yourself with bureaucracy because that's easy to do in these sorts of jobs. Whereas my view was I had to be out amongst it, I had to be in it, I had to be with people, I had to be on the ground. And if you did that, you gave yourself a better chance of getting the right feel of what was happening around you, how people were working, how people were relating with each other, how effective they were being on the paddock as coaches, or it might be building relationships with players at the right time because you know that was part of what I needed to do. If I was doing contracting work with players, it really helped me to understand them, where they were at in their life, what were the things that were going to matter to them when we started to have those discussions. Yeah, being being available is all those things. In Ireland, I moved my desk to give you an idea. I used to I moved my desk to the to the door or the hallway where everyone had to walk past. And pretty much if I was at my desk, um, I could see everyone and everything that was going on coming down the high performance centre. And what it meant was that most people, not all, most would stop and have a chat. And I'd get no work done, like between the hours of seven and six, I'd get absolutely no formal work done, but I learned a lot more. My day, I was always interested in talking to people. It gave me the ability to know what was going on. When they all went home, I had to start work. That was the problem. But but the important things I was learning by being available and having those discussions with people, it gave me hugely valuable knowledge about how people were, what they were doing, what was happening.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

I love it, mate. I just love that phrase. Don't consume yourself with the bureaucracy bureaucracy. That's the easy thing to do. And I guess you most coaches as well as leaders in in your sort of roles, that becomes the bit you get fixated on. But you're saying you can when you don't do that, you actually work out r what really matters in the group. And if you right?

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Yeah. You you gotta spend time investing in the people you work with.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Yeah. To the point where you move your desk so you get no work done there done during the day. That was my strategy. But it you know but um yeah. Does it out out of interest, does it does it double your work work day? Because that that would be a lot of people's fear, right? That you go don't get anything done yet and you're just burning the candle at both ends. Is that the case or is that the reality? Oh, that's just the reality.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

It's you know, depends how committed you are to something, you know. But as I say, uh, you know, the the the boring stuff, that you know, the stuff that you've got to get through emails and paperwork and and stuff, that'll still be there and you've got to do it. You know, it's part of your job. But it's not the most important part of your job. You know, it's about being able to prioritize what's the most important part. And the most important part to me was always to spend time with the people I worked with.

Systems Fail Without The Right People

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah, I think that's a great point. The fact that you're doing that at the at that highest level is is great for coaches. Now, mate, if we're talking about the high level, you've been here you've been heavily involved in building national systems, so not just the team, but the system. What what does that actually look like for those behind the scenes? How do you align your clubs, your pathways, your national teams? Yeah, all that stuff. How does that look?

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Yeah, look, you I think people can get carried away with systems and structure. There's no perfect system or structure. There's the ones that suit what you want to do, and you can build that, or you can copy someone else's structure of how you want to run, but the important piece is what you fill it with. And they're people. So you've got to understand that a structure or a system is only as good as the people you choose to put in there to make it come to life. And if you get that wrong, then your system or your structure won't work. It won't be as effective or as efficient as it as it should be. You know, I've always been a massive believer that to get something to work, you've got to be able to really be a good judge of human dynamic. You know, it's the old these jobs are it's it's human architecture. It's about how you put people together to exponentially make them better than what they are capable of being. And if you can get that right, well, then you're starting to build a pretty good system, you know, and it's just about understanding that, understanding what people are good at, where the where the system lacks, where there's shortfalls. So, where do you find someone you can pull into your model that can add value in an area that might complement someone else you're working with? That's the part that really fascinates me about these sorts of roles because it is all about that. People talk about diversity of thought. I'd be a massive believer in that, you know, because the teams that we've sort of built over the years, they would be from all different backgrounds, different nationalities, think differently about lots of things, but you know that there's a connection in there as people that they'll work together, but how they approach something might be different. And that sort of creation of that challenging, thoughtful environment is what propels you forward.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Do you have a gut feel on how you find those people? The challenging, thoughtful people? Is there a process?

Recruiting For Fit And Diversity

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Yeah, I like I mean, everyone gets these things wrong in Trump. Yeah, I can imagine. I've got it wrong a number of times, but if you get it wrong, I always go by the fix-it-quick, you know, um piece of advice. But it it's more about um, you know, I I spend a lot of time on recruitment. I spend a lot of time understanding what we need, and then I I then spend a lot of time looking at people and finding out about people that we are wanting to connect into the system. I think too often I've seen, you know, it being done too randomly, a bit too arbitrary. And um, you know, I think one of the benefits of being around the place in a lot of different places over a long time, I'd have a lot of people that I f I lean on and fall back on and I trust their opinion. People that know people, and you just do a lot of work on finding out about, you know, understand what you need or what you what the job is you require to be done, but then do your background work on the people you're bringing in.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

And you're prepared to go anywhere for those people, right? There's no there's no allegiances or or ty-ins to any particular place, no matter what country you're coaching.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Nope. No. We we would have, I think at one point in Ireland there, towards the back half of them, but someone said to me, Do you realize we've got 12 different nationalities working in the high performance area? I said, No, because it you don't I don't actually think about it, because you're just going out looking for the right people to do the job that's at hand. And it just so happens that they were this from all over the place that we built something with, and uh because they were the right fit.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Yeah, and it was a wonderful time, wasn't it, too? That ten years ten years is a long time. Is that about what it takes to to really see the fruits of some of the these appointments, this work you've done? Is that in then in the island example? Would you say it takes that long?

SPEAKER_01 13:31

I think we it takes a long time to get to the point of of probably understanding, you know, or ha or giving yourself the best chance of having some sort of success on on the paddock at the highest level, because that, you know, as you know and a lot of other people understand, it's it's not easy to do at that end of the game. And it's, you know, the first probably three to five years was really working super hard on the foundations of what was required to build something that was sustainable. And um I think during that time, that they were the building blocks that the last five years sort of uh rolled on from, you know, where the team got to be number one in the world for a good chunk of time and had success in different competitions and whatnot. So um, yeah, that that was the that was the hard work done then.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Any great appointments? You look back and go, that was a good one in that squad. Lots of good ones, lots of good ones, I think. You know, just good people. You don't have to be lifelong buddies with everyone, and we wouldn't be with with with a lot, but there's a lot that you do become lifelong friends with because you you've been in the trenches and you've been through some tough times and you've you've built things and achieved things together. So there's there's lots of lots of people around the world that class has been not only outstanding practitioners and professionals and what they do, but just good people and good friends.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

That is the joy, isn't it? Like it on the other side of that, I on the other side of that when you talked about not everyone was a lifelong buddy, is that kind of the reality too? That in these roles you're gonna have to make some big calls around people and what's right for systems and individuals. Is that is that where you lose a lot of people?

Why Healthy Tension Creates Edge

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah, look, it's I think, you know, people need to understand that if you want to work in the space, you know, people talk about tension, and I've used the phrase many times like tension is a good thing, but tension is healthy. And if you if you're working in high performance and you don't have some form of tension, then there's something wrong. There's something missing, you know, because I'm talking healthy tension, you know, where it's a challenging work environment because that creates edge. And it's you need edge to to do well, you know, at the pointy end of sport. And you've got to be comfortable living and working with tension.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

It's just it's part and parcel of the workspace. Do you drive that personally? Do you make sure you come in there with a with a blowtorch sometimes and put a bit of heat heat on? Is that part of your your remit? It's not my character to do it that way.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

I mean, but it's it would be more like I I'd like to think it it's more of a um a happy, challenging environment, I suppose. Maybe the people on the other end don't always think that would I always thought it was okay. But um, you know, I like I think you just gotta be comfortable, and and I I suppose it goes back to my point about when you're picking the right people that want to work in your space, that it's one of the things I look for, you know. Do you think they're gonna be a person that's gonna be comfortable working like this? Are you okay to be um, you know, in that area? You're not gonna feel intimidated, or you're not gonna feel um, you know, out of place, or are you comfortable there? Because they're the people that are gonna be the really good contributors.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Have you have you ever gone too far on it, you reckon, and pushed that tension too much and lost people?

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Maybe, maybe. I mean, you know, like it can get pretty touchy at times and in different situations with different things. But for me, it's never personal, you know. And if I had to blow up with someone, I would always make sure that the next conversation will will touch on it and go, look, hey, you know, we disagreed, but that's fine. We find a way through it and and off we go. Because it's not personal, it's just it if something needs to be said or discussed, you've got to do it.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yeah, that is the that is the key to that tension thing, isn't it? That it's never personal. And just to to get the understanding that it's not personal, sometimes you have to work on with with some people, right? Yeah, you do, yeah. But that but that is the reality at that that upper echelon of stuff, isn't it? That that is you've got to be able to remove the the personal side of it and and and just focus on what needs to be done.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, you do. There are times where that's absolutely what you gotta do. You've got to be unbelievably focused on where you're going and how you're getting there. And um, you know, because there's lots of lots of things that can happen in this business that knock you off track and uh you've got to have focus on on where you're heading.

Measuring Progress Beyond The Scoreboard

SPEAKER_00 18:41

I love that, mate. I love that. The focus based on things that are not personal. When we're talking about these, these these performance roles, do you have sort of metrics that you look at are in these roles that go beyond sort of the the wins and losses? Is it is the other stuff that you in your role focus on?

SPEAKER_01 18:59

It's I always find that part of it. I mean, obviously winning is is is a key metric for people, you know, like people, you gotta produce things that ultimately hopefully win. But I think the other part of it is that you've got to be able to, you've got to be able to judge performance. You've got to be able to see progression. Now, some of those things you can measure using certain tools, um, you know, to to see if you're progressing from where you were to where you want to be or where you're going. But I do think that people get hung up too much on being all that people want to measure everything. And there's certain things in in sport that you just can't measure. And rugby is a game as well that is probably more difficult than most to measure. We can measure the statistical things within the game, you know, the rucks, the line outs, the whatever, whatever turnovers and whatnot. But in performance growth, where you're trying to build things, it's really difficult because a high performance work environment is a genuine ecosystem where there's an enormous amount of reliance on lots of little areas within that work platform. You know, it could be the development coaches that are working at the under 16 level, or it could be, it could be the quality of the nutritionists' work being going on, or the relationships that the academy managers have with local rugby clubs. It could be, they're all things that actually are interrelated and build the foundations of what goes on at the top. So, how do you measure some of those things? It's really hard to do that. And I go back to what I said to you right at the start. I would be in the field, I would be on the ground, looking, listening, talking about things to get that feel of how we are going. Now, people will say, Well, how do you relay that? How do you measure if it's well or not? There's lots of things in coaching that are done by feel. And I think at times if you lose feel, you know, then you're you're probably going to struggle. And that feel for me comes from being, that's why I do the job I do the way I do it. I've got to be out there amongst it and get that sense of how things are working together or not. And if they're not working well together, you get that feeling that, okay, well, that's we're in, we're going the wrong way here, or that working relationship isn't, isn't going as it should, or we're not delivering as well as we could be, and we've got to fix it. You know, so I suppose that's just my way of doing doing things. Yes, there are measurables, but the measurables don't override the experience and the feel that you have of being on the ground.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

How would you justify that feel? You know, like if you had to explain to someone, oh well, I want to keep going with this because I just feel it's the right thing to do. Now how do you how would any coach play the the upward game around trying to justify their gut and their experience?

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Um it it's it's not Dennis Danudo, it's not the vibe, but it is very love that move actually, just took me back to the castle.

Backing Coaches Who Are Trending Up

SPEAKER_01 23:17

But um, it is more about um like with coaches, when you're working with coaches, and I know you know, I I was reading something there this afternoon on on what you'd sent me. It was around, you know, when you're working with coaches, you've got to be able to it, you've got to be able to live life in their shoes. And I've been I'm fortunate that I've done that and I I have been in their shoes. So if I can see that in a in a coach, the scoreboard might not be going their way. You know, like they mightn't have the number of W's that everyone's looking for. But if I've if I'm able to see that the way they are conducting their business on a day-to-day basis and the performances are heading and trending in the right direction, they're they're delivering the plan that they've said they're going to deliver, that they believe in, then you know, you know that that is going to have a high chance of success. You know, you can see it. It just mightn't be transferring into wins and losses at the moment. And they're the times that you've got to back coaches, you've got to support them, you've got to give them confidence to keep going with what they're striving to do. So, you know, I often have to justify why aren't we sacking this coach? And it's because I can see or I understand where they're going, it makes sense, and you can tell that it's going to come together, and you just need to give it time and be patient and to support them. Because too often decisions are made that are purely emotional and not pragmatic, and the wrong decision gets made.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

And um, yeah, you you end up chasing your tail. I guess the other one to that, Dave, is is how do you know when a coach is floundering and essentially losing the group?

SPEAKER_01 25:20

To me, it's obvious. Yeah. Like, I mean, to me, it is obvious. You can see when a coach has really lost it, where he's jumping all over the place. He's going from this is a good idea to that's a good idea, or this week we're going to do that. He doesn't stand for anything. He doesn't know where his North Star is. He doesn't know where he's trying to get to. And I think once that happens, he's been quite often he's been negatively impacted by all the noise around him and he's just lost his train of thought. Doesn't mean he's a bad coach. It just means that he's he's really lost how he's going to get from A to B. You know, what is it that he's looking to do with this team and where is he trying to take them? And what's the plan to get them there? You know, once you lose that direction because you've been knocked off track by many things that can happen to you at that level of the game, you know that they're gonna struggle.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

And how do you get better at those things? Do you just have to is that the experience coaches just have to go through, or is there techniques and and and ways?

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Look, there's I think that you know, coaches, you've got to be you've got to be fairly single-minded to be in this business. And you've got to, you've got to know, you've got to know where you're going, whether whether you're a head coach or whether you're a performance director, or you've got to have a plan, you know, and you've got to know how you're gonna pull this plan off. What's your strategy? How am I gonna get from where I am today to where I need to be, either as an organization or as a team? And you create that plan and you you timeline it out about how you're gonna do it. You fill the gaps with the people that you need to help get you there that you know are gonna, you know, help achieve these things. And as you're on that journey, you will get you will get a deviation, you know, because you you can't be that single-minded where you're pig headed and you don't you lose your agility to sort of take a detour, but your detour always comes back on course to go to where you were wanting to get to. It's when you take a real hard left turn or right turn and you go off on a tangent that's nothing to do with what your plan was, that's when you're in trouble. And you've got to be able to try and get coaches to understand that and work with them to be able to be really clear about, you know, what's your plan, how are you gonna get there, who's gonna help you, you know, get there, and how do we stay on course?

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Love it. Know your North Star has got to be the crux of of the role.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Know where you're going, you know, know what you stand for, know how you're gonna do it, and then, you know, put the people around you that is uh that are gonna help you succeed. I think in any leadership position, I think the best skill to have is the one of self-awareness, to know, to be really clear with yourself what you're not good at. And if you've got that clarity, you then go out and find the best people you can who are good at what you're not good at.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

That's probably a massive one for coaches, isn't it? In general, is to just be comfortable enough to know your weaknesses and address them.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Yeah, and that takes time. You know, a lot of coaches are out there trying to prove that they know everything or prove that they're bortproof, you know. And like you know, you you remember back as a as a player, Ben, when you've had coaches that if you're a bullshitter, a player will sniff you out so fast, you know. So own up quick. I'm not this ain't my area, but I tell you what, I'm gonna get someone in here who does know their shit in this space, and we're gonna be good. So, you know, it it's it's really understanding what you're not good at and what you don't know.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Well, why do you think players can smell that? What why do you think the r rational because they can. Why? How can they?

SPEAKER_01 29:31

I just think as you, you know, as you get coaching at a higher level, um, you know, people, players have got a better sense of what good looks like, you know, and uh you you can't you can't get away with with just fluffing things for for too long. You there's got to be substance and um you know you've got to build a belief and you might get away with it for a little while, but eventually, you know, you'll probably get caught out and then you'll lose them.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Yeah. Isn't it amazing? Hey, like just that that dynamic and a change room. And can once you lose the player's trust and belief in you, you're you're pretty done, aren't you, as a as a coach?

Long-Term Builds Versus Win Now

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Yeah, you are absolutely. So it's you know, you gotta you gotta one, you've got to believe in what you're selling. That that's that's massive, you know. Like if you don't have that belief when you come into a role, then you're gonna really struggle getting people to come with you. And and because at the end of the day, those people who come with you, they've got to be believers. They they're they're selling the same thing you're selling. And, you know, when they're on board and and they believe in what it is you're doing and where it is you're going, that then you get that exponential momentum, and that becomes really powerful, you know, as opposed to a fragmented organization or or team or coaching staff that no one really knows what you stand for or where you're going.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah. And I guess when you're talking about where you're going, what's the balance between trying to go for the that sort of long-term development versus that sort of pressure to win now? Because that's that's a big thing for coaches, whether it's that immediate results versus what they were potentially the North Star they were actually trying to get to long term.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Yeah. It's um, it's it's a in my role, that's a really big and important part of what I have to do. I'd like to think that if you asked some of the head coaches that I've worked with, that they would tell you that I try and give them uh a working, a work environment or a space that's safe, that enables them to not just be a Saturday-to-Saturday coach, be someone who is genuinely going to have the confidence to invest longer term in the role that they're in. Because a successful organization needs to have coaches that have the ability to have the guts to be able to make decisions that are in the best interests of the team in the organization that extend well beyond, you know, a season or two. We could be looking for something that's what's the right thing for over the next three to five years. Now, most coaches wouldn't have the confidence to think, well, shit, what if I'm not here? You know, part of the job of a performance director is to create that working environment where, hey, it's okay. Have an expectation at this level of the game that you're gonna win everything, right? I have an expectation that you're gonna create a really successful working environment that's gonna help us uh compete and stay in the top echelon of a competition, but I want you to to stay invested for a long period, and I want you to buy into what we're doing. Don't just think that if you lose three in a row, that someone's gonna come running with a hatchet to have you out of here. You know, because that's bad business. That's when you lose continuity, um, continuity is important.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Isn't it a good phrase, bad business? What's bad for business? And second people is bad for business, like unless there's a screaming need for it.

Governance Traps And Hidden Agendas

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Well, when you see teams that go through coaches like left, right, and centre, you've got to you've got to stop and think, hang on, what's wrong with his organization? You know, like there's there's something, there is something seriously wrong here that the coach keeps getting punted every couple of every year or two. You know, they've gone through six coaches in five years, and you've got to say, well, something's not right. And you either got to be able to see through that or get under the bonnet and fix it, or don't go near it.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

You mean someone new coming in, like someone like you, you would be very nervous about going into an environment where that's the history?

SPEAKER_01 34:00

You'd you'd want to have a real careful look at the organization. I think that not all gob not all jobs are good jobs, and you you want to be a little bit discerning, and and probably that's maybe a something that you get to do as you become a little bit more experienced. But I still think that anyone who's looking at taking a job that goes into this space of head coaching or or high-level coaching, you want to do your homework on the workplace you're going into. What are they like? You know, like what's the governance structure of the place? What's the what's the leader of the organization like? How do they make decisions? You know, are we philosophically aligned in how we think about things? You need to do your what your homework on that because if those organizations, if their government governance is messed up, if their leadership is not where it should be, and you're going to a job that gets extremely hot in the kitchen where you're the one who's going to be front and center, you probably want to reconsider.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Is there a lot of agendas in a lot of these environment jobs that you're you're sort of in that realm with? There's a lot of internal sort of um agendas which hold things back. And and and how do you identify that sort of thing and without it all just blowing up in your face?

Changing Ireland’s Belief To Beat Anyone

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Well, I think you, like I said there, you you've got to understand, like there are some there are some clubs, unions, etc. around the world that you need to look at the the structure of how they work, of how they run, right? So governance in sport is a hugely important factor, you know, and if you want to try and and invoke change or improvement of performance, an antiquated governance model does not match up with a modern-day high performance model. So if you want to give your teams or team or coaches or players the best chance to be successful, you've got to match yourself up with an organization that actually understands what's involved in high performance and either has the appetite to change to what's required, um, or you're probably barking up the wrong tree and you want to stay away from it.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Hmm. It's fascinating, isn't it? Like, yeah, you there's a lot to go before you accept these jobs because you could just be walking into a bear trap, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. You're set up to fail, not to succeed. I love it, mate. Now, have you got a bit of a a personal thing to yourself when I just heard you a couple of quotes you said, which I I I found really fascinating around this kind of thing. You said one of the one of the proudest moments you had was changing people's mindsets. I heard you say that in an interview. Is that something that when you look back on your roles with Ireland and and various other ones, is that more so a trigger of success than wins and losses?

SPEAKER_01 37:13

I absolutely believe so. I mean, look, probably you're asking me before about measuring things, the best organizations in sport have long-term, it's sustainable. Right? And because it's really hard at the top end of any sport to stay up towards the top. You know, Ireland 10 years ago were 11 years ago, whenever it was I started there, they were ninth or tenth in the world. And now, more importantly than that, they didn't actually believe that they could be good. You know, they didn't believe that, you know, that that they could win things. And I remember very early on, one of the things, probably being a bloody pig-headed Australian, it was, I can't believe you've never beaten New Zealand. So it was like, well, why not? So that was a mindset thing, and it wasn't me, it was a it was a combination of a whole lot of people that actually started to shift how Irish rugby worked and thought about things and performed. And the day in Chicago in 2016, when Ireland beat uh New Zealand for the first time, it was a watershed moment because since then they've beaten them, I won't say on an they've beaten them reasonably regularly, and they were probably the first team uh that started to do that on a more regular basis. And that then started to permeate down through Irish rugby. So the young boys that we were bringing through our development pathways, they started seeing this. They started believing that, okay, well, the national team are winning, they're beating New Zealand now, who was seen rightly as the icon of world rugby at that time. And they started to believe in themselves that if we do all this, maybe we can do that. We started to beat New Zealand. Irish teams started to beat New Zealand at different age group levels. They started to have that success. That grew, you know, and it just kept snowballing to the point now where any Irish underage or senior team genuinely goes out on the pitch with the belief that they can win and will win. And we didn't have that. And that is a combination of a whole lot of things, but that belief now is embedded and hopefully is sustainable for a long period of time. And that is massively important. That's a cultural change.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Yeah. And have you got any specific examples how you did that? Or how do you how do you even attempt to sort of get that in from a team that's 10th in the world to ultimately get to number one and believe that they can, they can bleed all these teams on the way. What are some tangible things other coaches could derive from that exercise?

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Again, it's multifaceted. It's a big, I keep using that word, ecosystem, where there's a whole lot of reliance on a whole lot of things and a whole lot of people doing their job really, really well. And if everyone is performing to the best of their ability in this chain of events, you start to just build people that are being prepared to fill in and take over someone's role and they're ready to perform at the levels required. They understand the tactical, the tactical, the technical, the emotional. Um, you know, they understand all of those things that make up being a test match player. And they're the sorts of things that you're working really hard on in that pathway. And then you rely on your coaches at the top end. And we've been really lucky with with Joe and then Andy in Ireland who then reinforce that, reinforce those factors and build those beliefs within the the group, and off you go. So it's it's not one thing. It it's such a combination of so many things and so many people doing good work to be able to achieve these things.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

Was the was the appointment of guys like Joe and like Andy in part because they had that sort of winning sort of mindset? They were, they were sort of the people that could carry that mindset for you. Like they could sort of go, they're gonna drive that part of the ecosystem that we want, that you want.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Yeah, Joe was Joe was exactly what Ireland needed at that point in time going back 2013. You know, they they didn't have um, they were an emotional team that didn't have the the tactics, the strategies, the techniques to be able to perform on a consistent basis. Joe gave them that, you know, incredibly technical uh with what he did, but also motivational in the way that he put it together. And then the the group evolved over the years to, you know, Andy, Andy came in after 2015 World Cup, and he was the perfect person, in my view, to have in the system longer term. And you only had to look at his background. I didn't know him before I engaged and employed him, but I'd done my work on him and I knew what sort of person he was. And you didn't have to be a rocket scientist, you just had to look at the guy. Like the guy is he's a winner. You know, anything he's done, he's been high performing and he knows how to he knows how to, he knows what it feels like to win. He knows how to be a part of winning environments. And, you know, he was the perfect person to roll on after Joe from an Irish point of view.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Yeah, and and hasn't that the and testament to Joe too, right? Like the transition was just seamless. And yourself too, like you couldn't have asked for better, right? Normally there's a lull after a coach, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Yeah, there's little dips uh along the way, but ultimately, I mean, that is again long-term planning. That that's about knowing where you're going before you get there and putting the things in place where you're not gonna you're not gonna have a massive dip, where you're going to be you might have a lull, but it's it's not gonna be a a downward spiral that you know you'll live through that and then eventually you'll start going back up again. That that's pretty much where Irish rugby was.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Yeah. And do you think what what are the influence of players? So obviously coaches have their impact, but do good players drive the success, or does the system create the good players? What's the dynamic there?

Leading Coaches With Authentic Support

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Good players, world-class talented players, that that's a that's a gift for a lot of them. What a system does is enables them to it enables the system, it enables a world-class player to keep driving to get better. You give them the support and the workspace because they're, you know, you call them test match animals, but you know, they thrive, they thrive in those sort of work environments, if you can provide those for them. And then the rest of the players that mightn't be as gifted, you're again supplying them with all the tools that enables them to become the best player that they can be. And that's that's what you're trying to build.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yeah, mate, it's it's a cool reflection that you're talking about because you you've obviously had that ability from a coaching background, you've obviously first hand with the coaches. Nowadays you're almost leading the coaches, right? How do you shift and how do you change your approach when you're we're dealing with from players, now you're dealing with coaches? How does that dynamic shift?

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Yeah, you know, there's so many similarities because it's a people business. You know, I I think a little bit we touched on there before. I think the first thing is about being authentic, you know, because if you are, you you're just gonna be yourself and people will. Take you for what you are. So you'll build a relationship based on who you are, what you believe in, and you create those working relationships that are genuine. And again, I go back right to the start, Ben, where I said I spend a lot of time on the ground. I spend a lot of time in and around all the people, in and around the coaches, so that they can feel comfortable and confident, but at the same time know that there is also, this is a performance environment. You know, we can have a laugh and a giggle and a joke, but there's a job to be done and there's certain parameters that you've got to work within. But, you know, I'm here to support you. I'm here to help you. Like you're there to help a player to become the best they can be. I'm here to help the coaches to become the best that they can be. What do you need to be successful? What can I do for you? Again, it's a bit like, well, okay, understand what they're good at and what they're not good at. Sometimes you've got to give them a bit of a hand with that. Um then you sort of say, Well, you need, you need some of this, or you need some skills in this area, and that's there to support them. You're there to help them be a success. You want them to succeed. And I think if they understand that and they have the confidence that you're there to do exactly that, then you know that that's a big part of it.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Is there a little bit of edge there too? Are you creating a dash of edge just by being there constantly? And like you talked about, the little bit of tension is is a healthy thing. Is that a part of it as well? Sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Like sometimes, you know, if you've got a leadership position, sometimes people get nervous when you're around. Yes. You know, they go, shit, what's he doing here? But you try and make that, I try and normalize it. And I try and normalize it to the fact where they feel comfortable that you're around and that they can just be themselves. And, you know, if they're being themselves, there's a better chance that they're going to be successful in what they're trying to do rather than pretending that they're someone else, you know, that they're not. So again, that whole area of of letting people be authentic, be who they are, um, you know, making people feel good about what they're doing, I think are all really important factors in creating a cohesive workspace.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Yeah, I love them, mate. You actually spark me off on a little making people feel comfortable and things is like my teenage kids have a little pre-drinks thing around at our house, and um they're pretty awkward to start with, right? You would have been through this, but then the more you can get them to be authentic in themselves, it's a better place for them to be. It's a far more enjoyable It is. You can then have the hard words about not drinking too much and all that sort of stuff, right? But they still know that you're their dad, Ben. Yeah, that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

There's always that. And that's the bit, you know, because yeah, they know I'm there to support them, but they also know sometimes you do use your position to put a bit of heat on, like your presence. You don't have to say much. You just have to be there or you have to be in the moment of the right situation. And sometimes that's enough for people just to remember as well to keep them focused. So it's it's a balancing act, it's a fine line about, you know, how you how you use your time and sp your time with people and how you relate to them in those work environments.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

Yeah, man. It's just so has this changed when you were coming through the ranks at the Blues and the Brumbies, was this sort of people focus less so than it is now? Has it become more prevalent in modern day coaching than coaching, say, 20 years ago?

SPEAKER_01 49:36

Yeah, I definitely think it has. You know, like the best head coaches these days, I think, are people that obviously have all the tools. They're technically uh good, they're tactically savvy, but they are very much people managers. They understand how to get the best out of people and um, you know, be it players or their staff. And um, you know, that that's a real skill. And not everyone's cut out to be head a head coach. And I I think that's something that, you know, unfortunately, too many people see that to see themselves as being a successful coach, they feel they've got to be a head coach. And I think that's where the game of rugby is still very immature compared to a lot of other games that probably appreciate and support people who are strong in other areas. They might be you're you're you're gonna be a world-class uh forwards coach, defense coach. That's your strength. You're you're you're tactically very good, you're technically excellent, your skill set might be better suited to coach women, yours might be better suited in the development pathway. The game has to be mature enough to be able to appreciate those people and what their strengths are because deaf not everyone was cut out to be a head coach at the real pointy end of the game.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

Yeah. Have you changed? Have you changed over those years? So in your in your yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Yeah. There was there's uh there was something there. If you're not gonna ask me, I know you might ask me, but you know, something that, you know, you look back on things, yeah, and you know, like I was I was too bullish and pig headed. If I look back now as me and my roles to what I was then, like we probably all do, I go, shit, I wouldn't have done that again. Or I wouldn't have done it that way. And, you know, I think that I'm far more understanding of people. And I think that early on I probably expected people to change to suit what I wanted. Uh now I'd probably have more of an appreciation that I'm probably the one that can be a bit more agile to get them to come with me rather than trying to be a bit more bullish and pig headed about things.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Yeah. Do you mean do you think you the players would have thought that or your fellow coaches that were coaching with you? Probably both. Probably both at times.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

Oh. So um, yeah. Yeah, it's one of two things that stick out in my mind. One of them back in New Zealand in particular, but what do we got?

SPEAKER_00 52:11

What what do we got, Dave? You got any you got any scenarios, individual ones?

SPEAKER_01 52:16

Oh, look, you know, like you you were probably around in the time, you know, when Ali went down to to the Crusaders and left the blues, you know, uh that was just a that was a that was a headbutting competition between he and I. Now did he do things that I didn't like or didn't weren't right for the team, yes. Did I approach it in the best way possible with hindsight? No. I I I was the I was the adult in the room and I probably could have been, you know, I probably should have thought about how I was going to get him on board better, you know. But hey, you do things at times that you know, you thought it was good at the time, but you look back on it and you go, well, I'd probably do it differently now.

Linking High Performance With Participation

SPEAKER_00 53:08

Mate, I think that phrase in itself, be the adult in the room, is uh is actually a good one for all coaches and leaders to take on whether you're the same age as those you're dealing with or not, right? Like be the adult here. Treat everyone like you have to be the adult.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

Yeah, I mean, uh look, the big thing for me is just be respectful. I'm trying to be respectful with everyone. And um, you know, I think that if, as I said earlier, you don't have to be everyone's best friend, but you know, at the end of the day, I mean, if I respect them and they respect me, we'll probably have pretty good chance of having a good working relationship, whether that be a coach, a player, a physio, a strength and conditioner, or whoever.

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Mate, we we've got time for just a couple more questions, Dave. And I'm really interested in this one, mate. Like from your experience globally, you know, what are rugby systems? Because you you are very good with your systems at a national level, but you have a good understanding of it all. What are we getting wrong and what are we getting potentially right currently from in rugby systems at the moment? Have you got any reflections on that?

SPEAKER_01 54:12

I think that people need to understand that high performance can't operate in isolation. I think too many places, unions around the world don't understand that. High performance components of the game need to be in sync and have a w a really good working relationship with the community game. If you let one suffer, then you know, in the case of the community game of of rugby, if you don't pay the due attention to that, if high performance doesn't work to be in sync with the community game, then you're going to have a problem because high performance is reliant on participation. Participation has to stay healthy. So you have to find ways that that that interface between performance and participation, you have to try and make it as healthy as you can so that both sides benefit. And I'm not sure that that happens consistently around the world in rugby because performance will only exist or will only get better the healthier participation is. So you you've got to help the game grow, you've got to keep it in a good shape.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

And it's it is actually a challenge in the game, right? But with the amount of options that young people have coming through to play the game, it's just gone through the roof, right? Like there's a multitude of sports. Now, 20 years ago it was often in some countries just rugby or cricket. But now it's you've got a smorgasbord. That's a big challenge, right?

The Career Backup That Frees You

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Well, it is, but the the other part of that challenge is if you've got the right people, you know, running the show and you look at unions or or governing bodies, and you know, the game the game needs to keep being appealing to a wider range of of fans. And if people think that 15 aside traditional rugby is the only way to do that, then they're barking up the wrong tree. The game needs to have needs to be agile. It needs to have good leadership that sees the game being able to go into different parts of the world with different formats that appeals to different people and genders and et cetera. So we've got to make sure that we've got that diversity of thought now, leadership and the people that are making these decisions.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

Yeah, mate, it's it's it's absolutely Yeah, it's a real it's a tough one too, because the game still was in its infancy as a professional game. It's only 30 years or so old compared to a lot of those big ones. So there's a few more things to come its way.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, the game's still learning.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

Yeah. Dave, it's got to that time, mate, where I've got one more question for you, and it's the one we finish on here.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

And I'd love to ask you this. What's one belief you have about high performance that you that you believe in that you reckon a lot of your coaches or peers would disagree with?

SPEAKER_01 57:18

Right. I don't know if they'd disagree. Maybe they will, I don't know. But I'll say it anyway. Always, if you're gonna go into this business, you always have an alternate career to fall back on. Now, that may sound bleeding obvious, right? But I genuinely believe that it makes you a better coach, right? Because too often I see people not coaching the way that they truly believe in or how they feel it should be done. They're coaching to keep their job. And you're not gonna be the best coach you're gonna be if you do it that way. And the way that I truly believe you can be yourself as a coach is to be really comfortable that you've got something else that you're more than happy to go back and do. You know, like if you get booted because you're doing something that someone doesn't like or they don't like the way you're gonna, you know, the way you're doing it, that's on the cards in this business. But I guarantee you, if you're true to yourself as a coach and you know what you're doing and you know how you're gonna do it, um, you'll probably get sacked along the way somewhere. But that won't matter if you don't care because I'm happy to go and do this other thing that I've got. It'll make you a better coach. So go and do something else. Have something else that you're happy with, and I guarantee you you will be the coach that you want to be, and you'll be a better coach for it if you don't give a shit about getting sacked because you got something else you're happy with.

SPEAKER_00 59:01

Isn't it funny how the financial, the financial aspect shouldn't be a a threat for you in theory, right? That's that's detrimental.

Three Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_01 59:09

Yeah, it is, and and people worry about that. But if you've got something else, I mean, how many times as a player did someone say to you, Ben, make sure you're doing something else, make sure you study and make sure you got this to fall back on, you know. And it's got to be the same for coaches. You know, coaches need to be comfortable with doing something else because without sounding like a broken record, it'll make you a better coach if you're true to yourself about what you believe in. Will it get you sacked? Maybe, probably, but you'll be a better coach and you'll bounce back into it anyway, and you'll be happier with the way you've gone about doing it.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

I think the reality is too, right? Yeah, you're you're two types of coaches, one that's been sacked and one about to be sacked. Is that the great job, eh? What a great job. Hey David, what an absolute pleasure to have. If I'm have you on the show today, if I may, I'd just like to wrap up with my three final takeaways from this really insightful and enjoyable conversation, mate. They are these. Number one, don't consume yourself with bureaucracy. Because that's the easy thing to do. I loved how you started the opening of this podcast talking about that. What you can do is get out there and work out what matters. And you talked about moving your desk so you could see people, interact with people all day. And the other side of the job, the bureaucracy, that took place after everyone had left. That was on your own time, and I really love that concept. Number two, you talked about tension is a good thing. Tension is part of a high performance, and healthy tension is really good for that ecosystem. And I love the way you also put it to people is never take it personally, and it's never personal. This is part of this whole gamba. It does this is trying to drive performance. It's nothing personal about that. And number three is know your North Star. I think this is a great one for all coaches at all levels to just have something to hang your hat on your way, having a direction and a map to go by in your direction. And you also talked about just understanding that sort of self awareness of what you're good at and what you're not so good at, and making sure you're surrounding yourself and people that help balance you out. I think that's a lovely way to go. David Noosafora, thank you for your awesome time today on the Coaching Culture podcast. No problem, Ben. It's been a pleasure.