How the Hurricanes Value Culture. Tom Kindley

A 60-5 final score makes headlines, but the real story is what has to be true inside a team for that kind of performance to show up when it matters most. We’re joined by Tom Kinley, General Manager of the Hurricanes, to break down the culture systems and leadership habits that turn a talented roster into a connected, resilient, high-performing group.

We dig into how Tom defines team culture as shared patterns of thinking and behavior, and why the “intangible” edge is often the difference between evenly matched sides. Tom shares the Hurricanes’ everyday standards that build belonging, including the simple practice of greeting every person in an environment of roughly 150 staff and players, plus the deliberate way leaders create accountability without turning everything into mandates.

From there, we get practical about high performance: planning the week, building trust fast in a new role, and aligning everyone around the Hurricanes vision to “unite and excite” while living an “us vs us” mindset. We also talk talent development, hiring for character fit, creating optimism and license to play, and why widening the lens matters, including learning from experts outside rugby to improve communication and bring the unspoken to the surface.

If you care about coaching culture, leadership, organizational culture, and building teams that perform under pressure, this one is packed with usable ideas. Subscribe, share it with a coach or leader you respect, and leave a review with the one culture habit you want to try next.

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Transcript

Welcome And A 60-5 Season

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Um the vision is to unite and excite so the regions, the people within the Hurricanes region, um and we're always being in the pursuit of a perfect storm uh on the on the rugby field without the culture, the connection, the willing to go that that little bit further for one another. Uh I'm not sure that they would have rolled out that performance as the guy that demands excellence of others. Like if people slip up, they're they're very quick to to pull people up on it and just to hold people accountable to you know the agreed-to standards within the group. The least you can do is go and have a conversation with someone and you know making sure they're feeling welcomed and valued. And um yeah, it doesn't take a huge amount to make people feel valued. Every morning everyone says good morning to every single person within the environment, and there's a hundred and fifty odd people within the hurricane setting, and the players go out of their way to to go and say hello, and and it's a small thing, but it is prioritised within the hurricanes.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Tom Kinley. Tom is the GM of the Hurricanes in New Zealand. This is his first season, and what a season it's been for the Hurricanes, absolutely dominating super rugby competition, smashing the Chiefs 60 to 5 in the final and creating three new all blacks in the process. Prior to this, he has been with the Boston Free Jacks and the MLR winning three back-to-back championships. In another life, Tom was analyst for New Zealand rugby and the USA in the World Cup. Success follows Tom everywhere he goes, and he goes a lot of places. He is outstanding at what he does, and more importantly, he's a heck of a top man. Tom, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Thanks, Ben. I appreciate you having me on. I love the word um cultivating that you use there in the intro and just the how authentic your intro is in general. Um some nice words there. Definitely I have to live up to them over the next the next few years, so no pressure, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Well, mate, it's well what what an absolute cracking start, mate. You roll into the hurricanes in your first year, it's it well probably the best uh season the hurricanes have ever had. And cultivating in a final 60 to 5, which is unheard of. How is the the feeling and the mood in the hurricanes at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Yeah, I think um definitely some elements of relief among some of the really experienced people. Like there was certainly a bit of relief for for some of them that are like, thank goodness we got that done. Um, because they yeah, it was the last crack for a few of them. Um uh yeah, a little bit of you know, bewilderment at that score line and just how how good that performance was in the final game for sure. Um, but yeah, it's also like when I've only been here for three months, so you're trying to work out like what is the reaction here, and when you don't know everyone inside and out, you're trying to actually work out is that then is that baseline, is that, you know, how how are they all behaving here? But yeah, I thought they were actually pretty, you know, very professional and they weren't too um you know too over the top or anything. They're pretty uh pretty balanced throughout the whole thing, really.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Yeah, it and mate, it's it's cool to hear that it was bewildering for everybody, that score line. It was probab it was just such a complete performance. It was i amazing, really. Mate, we start this podcast with a question which is pretty simple, but I'd love your take on it from your worldly experiences. How do you define culture?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Yeah, like I thought a little bit about this one, and and I I guess the way I describe it would be shared patterns of thinking, behaving, and acting within a group. So I guess the cultural norms within a group. Um, and then probably to go a little bit further, I I believe that when the the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, it's that differ it's that extra part that makes it so, that makes it makes the whole greater than the sum of the parts. It's the thing that's intangible that you can't see, but makes that difference. Uh and if I think about the Hurricanes winning recently, yes, they're a very good experienced rugby team. But without the culture, the connection, the

Defining Culture Beyond The Game

SPEAKER_00 4:30

willing to go that that little bit further for one another, uh, I'm not sure that they would have rolled out that performance that you spoke of in that final game. So yeah, uh that's what it is for me.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Yeah, I think you're right, mate, when you talk about that intangible thing, because when when I look at, say, that final on paper, and you look at the Chiefs versus Hurricanes on paper, it's it's it's a very evenly matched team. And if you look at the coaching staff, it's very evenly matched, and everything, X's and O's wise, is pretty similar. There's just this intangible piece which blew that score line out, and that's coming back to what this show is all about is what is that intangible piece, that cultural piece, right? It's it's tough to say. Have you got some examples of why you think this particular group looks so incredibly connected?

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Yeah, I I think that comes back to experience. So a couple of experience in a couple of different ways. So shared experience. The group's had so many of them, um, for for starters, and you develop a culture based on, you know, cumulative shared experiences, I believe. And and importantly, they've had some big losses together, some some big negative shared experiences that was definitely, you know, acted as uh a motivationary tool for a lot of them because they they had learned a lot from those experiences together. Um and then I think yeah, the level of experience within the Hurricanes group this year in general, i.e., games played years that have been around was unmatched, really. The amount of guys that we had eight guys that played their 50th this year, uh, another one that played his hundredth in dupes. Uh so that that definitely helped as well because those guys form the majority of the nucleus of the team and they're able to kind of sway those guys that might have sat on the fence and been like, do I want to either buy in or not? And I think they got the vast majority of the group buying in and contributed contributing above and beyond a normal level.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Yeah, that's right, mate. And when you talk about negative shared experience, are you talking just about losses or or games, or are you talking about stuff which goes beyond the field?

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah, probably really easy to look at the quarterfinal loss against the Brumbies and um other playoff losses, and and certainly those have been defining and um have have resulted in a lot of soul searching for coaches and players, and you know, a lot of time and effort's gone in to understand well, like what why are we losing those games? What are we not doing well enough? Where where can we improve? So that's certainly been a part of it. But yeah, to your point, um, yeah, there would have been there would have been off-field things that could have been improved, and I haven't been around to see all of them, but like at the the easy example is every morning everyone says good morning to every single person within the environment, and there's a hundred and fifty odd people within the hurricane setting, and the players go out of their way to to go and say hello, and and it's a small thing, but it is prioritized within the hurricanes, and I think that you know that starts a lot of yeah, connections and conversations organically throughout the course of a year that was certainly pretty helpful.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Is that is that a dynamic that's been pressed on the team? Like you must do this? Is it is it is it being reviewed and you've said this is what we'd like to do? All the leaders have said that, and then

Everyday Belonging And Valuing People

SPEAKER_02 8:00

it's like a formalised thing, or is it just a casual sort of always make sure you get around the the wider staff?

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Yeah, it's a good question because mandated isn't a very nice term. That players would probably be that interested in having things mandated to them. I think it was and again, I wasn't there for when that was agreed upon as to that's how we that that's how we operate, but that's how I see it. Is it's more of a this is what we do, this is like what the hurricanes are about, and people just buy and have bought into that. So I don't know if it's mandated, but it'll be the closest thing to being mandated.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Yeah, and and it's it's such a cool thing that I don't think a lot of uh teams or organizations do look at is these intangible things like that and the the the impact that it has, like to have a review of a a loss and then say, like, this is what we've got to do, we've got to make sure we connect with everybody every day going forward. Um particularly in the business world, that would be something which you'd be all about the KPIs and we've got to train more, we've got to do more passing, kicking, whatever. But to put in something like that as a leadership group is refreshing and and powerful to hear, and it's no surprises that performance-wise, it's really become connected.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. It's definitely it was definitely and we we had a number of visitors throughout the year that they would come in and and often the feedback would be like, oh, your players were so lovely, like they they like all of them came up to us and greeted us, and it's really easy to not do that. Like I do remember when I was um I like we treat our interns here at the Hurricanes so well, incredibly well, and no knock on the Highlanders, but when I was an intern at the Highlanders, I don't honestly know if anyone beyond the analysis department would have said hello, maybe the odd player that truly went out of their way to say good day and to find your name and like work out what your name is. But our interns here at the Hurricanes are treated like you wouldn't know that they're not a staff member. It took me a while to work out that no, they're they're interns, they're they're not actually staff members because they're they're treated no differently. So I thought, and that's led by Clark, Clark Labelo here at The Hurricanes, and um yeah, and he doesn't need to do that. Um he's got areas where he needs to put his time into, but he chooses to put some time into that, which is cool.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

When you say he doesn't need to do that, what is the power of a of a head coach doing that?

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah, well, yeah, you set the tone, don't you? You set the tone among the among your staffing group, and it's a big staffing group uh uh within a super rugby performance team, like we have 25 odd staff in the performance side, and if your head coach is behaving that way, then it it sets a cultural norm as to, you know, this is this is what we do here.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Ooh, sets the cultural norm. Yes. And and just to sort of probably expand on this, the more engaged and connected, like you're essentially your lowest um employee and the like an intern who's doing it for free feels connected to an organization, more likely to do all those little intangible things which actually make a difference, right? Um because you feel part of something. You feel like you feel worth, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Yeah, you do, and they can all add, yeah, they can add, you know, like they're big, they're big staffing groups, but they're they're not um, you know, they're still everyone has to work really hard and there's still scope to do more. So I think if you can get them playing playing key roles, doing their little things, they can be really helpful. And like an example of that would have been um one of the interns was quite quite funny, and they got him actually on a on a game day minus two training, doing a speech to the team. They would all come in pre-training, and he would do a speech, like a motivation motivation type speech to the team every week. And the players have really looked forward to it, and like, how cool is that for a guy who's 20 years of age? Like, yeah, yes, there's an element of sarcasm to it, but it like he will never forget that. And a lot of the players won't either the super rugby grand final week, and he's rolling out a motivationary speech and getting advice from the players as to what he could do next week is so good.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

So good, and it will what it does do too, right, is it sends ripples down the whole organization and community, right? Like he'll go home, tell his mum and dad, they'll tell their friends, and that'll just ripple out into the the whole community, the the supporter base of the hurricanes, right? And you'll never know the impact, but it's there, it's real. I actually love it. Just for just for some listeners, I do like the phrase you just said as a complete side, game day minus two. I I love that. Do you want to just elaborate on that terminology where you count backwards from game days, and then you set your patterns um and you call you don't call it a Thursday, you call it game day minus two. How does that operate in a in a professional rugby context?

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Yeah, yeah. So I guess um it's an interesting one because um you you obviously know Ryan Martinwell, and he often says that some someone once upon a time, he uses a more derogatory term, but I won't use that here, um, uh, came up with what a rugby week looks like, and then everyone just copy-pasted it across their programs. So I think there's an area to really evolve and change, change the norms around around our weeks. But if you play on a Saturday, generally you have a captain's run the day before, so game day minus one, then game day minus two would be Thursday, and that's like a you know a shorter, sharper, high-intensity training um meant to prime the team for the weekend ahead, and then go back two more days, game day minus four, and that's like a bigger training day where generally teams try to accumulate more like a game level of training load generally in season, and then game day minus five would be your day one learning type day. So that would be typical, and sometimes we'll use different iterations of the week, but it is a nice way to kind of think about it from a as a staffing group, game day minus two, um, rather than like day one, two, three, four can get a bit confusing.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Yeah, I I I I love it too, and it doesn't like every team can have slightly different things of what that is on those days for you, which is specific for you, but just it's a nice patterning, isn't it? So the whole staff could just go, right, I know what we do on game day minus two, and and it just follow it keeps it nice and from your perspective running the show, it's it's probably nice make makes patterning simple, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Yeah, it does. It does, and I think it was interesting coming in three months ago, and like the biggest pressure point that the club had was probably scheduling. Um that was the biggest problem it when I came in, was like we need to get our scheduling right. So um it seems silly, but it isn't a obviously an important part, and like people being able to feel really planned and organized heading into a game, people being the players and the players first and foremost. So yeah, I just thought that was interesting that you know every single level people have still got those got those issues.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

It's incredible, right? I think people also sometimes are surprised when they come and watch elite professional teams, even on field, they're like, oh, they're doing the same drills we do. Uh they're almost expecting something uh you know out of the box, something like NASA might do, but it's it's pretty pretty consistent, isn't it, across all levels of rugby. Now, mate, I've got something I I'm keen to know about your transition into this role because you're coming into uh a pretty um well established role. And I've got a quote here from you. I've got a couple of quotes actually, mate, but you've said uh when you came in, I'm excited to correct uh connect and understand the people and processes across the organization as quick as possible. Um I look forward to collaborating with the players and staff to enable the club to reach its full potential on and off the field. And I loved how that was one of your first statements when you came into this organization about connecting and understanding the people. How's that process what what did you do to to do that? And and why is it important that those are the first things you do when you get into um in your role into a into a new team?

Planning The Week And Settling In

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah, uh probably two things like the so the GM role is really it's a facilitator type role where you're receiving all these different inputs and trying to make and organise the right decisions at the right time. So and it's there's a vastness of of the of the staffing group in particular, and there's so much good information out there, so it's my job to go and get that information and then to reinterpret it and then shape it into decision making, I think. So um, yeah, I guess that's important because that's how I see the role. Um, and then the way of doing it, you can't do that without really strong, genuine relationships where people respect you and know that you're you're in it for the right reasons and you're there for them. Um yeah, so like I definitely wanted coming in to prioritize spending time with people and getting to know them. And um yeah, someone said a lot, a lot of people said, Oh, like it takes three a good three months to even get remotely close to to actually understanding an organization. I kind of dismissed that early on, and then now being three months on from my arrival, like there is no real shortcut to that. I don't think you actually do need to spend the time like just observing, understanding. Like I've been uh I guess anxious to get going and to to rip into things, to get you know, to start to rip into things, but um, and I've been able to do that a little bit here and there, but um more importantly is getting to know people and understanding, like if like I suppose you know if you can have 15, 25 people working really well at one time, that's gonna be far more efficient than me getting slightly better in my role and doing my few things that I'm currently working on. So yeah, still working that out, mate, to summarize. But yeah. That was ca that was my mantra and idea coming in.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Uh I actually love that, mate. Getting 25 people working slightly better is far more valuable than you getting yourself right in these roles. Yeah, and I and uh to be honest, I think that's the same with with coaches too, like um getting the everyone else that little bit more connected, a little bit better, um goes a long, long way. And and you also said, mate, off air, that the more you get round, the less you feel you know. Is that still still the case?

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yeah, uh coming in the to the hurricanes, they just do everything completely like they do everything differently, and I knew I'd have to be really open to things being done differently, and it it just dawned on me that every place has their own, yeah, that has their own true identity, and you have to find out the way that's gonna work for that club. So I've really enjoyed um understanding why they do things and how they do things, and the the majority of them are done very well and for good reason. Um, but it just it certainly dawned on me as like, well, that it'll be the same every single place you go. Like you need you'll need to understand that, like why the why the people, you know, um, because that's that informs what you should do and what gold standard might look like at those different places. So yeah, that's been pretty exciting seeing that. And obviously at the Hurricanes they've got so many good people and and they've got some they've got things going really well. You've got like the likes of Jason Holland who's been around and yeah, some really good people driving that.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

What is the culture of the hurricanes? What what what does it feel like on a day-to-day basis? Yeah, it's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Uh the vision probably drives some of that, and the vision is to unite and excite so the regions, the people within the Hurricanes region, um, and we're always being in the pursuit of a perfect storm uh on the on the rugby field, and it probably all came to like fruition on Saturday night with you know that that performance, which was just about the perfect storm, as close as you can come to it. So they've spent a lot of time on the game model, but they've spent a lot of time on what what actions look like to be able to unite and excite our team and the club and the region and and really breathe some life back into the Hurricanes brand, but also Wellington and the Hurricanes region. So yeah, that

Unite And Excite With Us Vs Us

SPEAKER_00 20:45

that's I guess when you go in, there's that, and then there's also there's definitely an element of humility within the group. Like there's very there are very few egos within the group, and I've been very impressed by the by that.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah. My mate, just as an old boy of the club myself, that unite and excite phrase is just outstanding because um you can feel it rippling through not just the region but like everyone that's been a part of that, and it does get you excited and you can feel the ignitement, uh the ex the unitedness. And it does have a flow-on effect to things wider than the actual sport. I've been really impressed by the the way this team, particularly, the way they carry themselves, not just on the field, but also off it, like you talked about that humility. Um, it does branch out into everyday life of those that live in Wellington. And when I talk to friends in Wellington, they they talk really positive of the team, even if they don't know them and and how they're going and holding themselves. It's it's a joy, mate, to be able to articulate that vision, unite and excite in the in search of the perfect storm is pretty powerful, I reckon. And if you're holding yourself as a player and a staff member to that sort of concept, the idea of being you Uniting and exciting a region, man, that's a powerful statement, which makes you want to get out there and do what you do.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yeah. And it enables you to be success successful even if you didn't win the campaign. Um and hopefully we do hopefully we do continue to to win campaigns and and be there thereabouts on a regular basis. But um it gives you other things to be able to strive for and and for guys that aren't they may not be playing, may not be in the 23 for a whole season, but they can still make a meaningful contribution to the club.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Oh yes, that's massive, man. That is massive. Like redefining what success looks like, because you you can't always win it. But if you have something like that, everyone on that team's got a role, like to unite and excite. And you can control that, right? Like that's that's the power of having a vision statement that does that. It just takes you know, performance isn't on field performance, it's the way you hold yourself, the way you are, the way you act in small interactions, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Yeah, yeah, 100%, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

So much of our focus would be or has been throughout throughout the year on us versus us and uh the players giving their best account of themselves through the week and trusting that that would be enough if if they got that right and if they prepared well enough on an individual basis and they spoke when they needed to and helped others when they needed to. So yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Mate, us versus us. That is a wonderful statement, Tom. Like I don't I can imagine a lot of people will be writing that one down because that's absolute gold. Now, mate, you you haven't just been in the hurricanes, you've you've gone from an analysis to a general manager and pretty much every job along the way. Mate, how has that journey shaped you your you as a leader? Like, how's it how's it affected what you do now?

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Yeah, I'm probably not like a yeah, I define a natural leader. I I don't know what the definition is of a natural leader, but I'm probably not it. Um and there's a Joe Mazzula quote which is that every role matters and that's how we win. And I think that would probably summarize the way I see leadership personally. Like I'm not gonna be the loudest person in a room, and um but like I I having been in a lot of different roles throughout a clo throughout an organization from being an intern at the likes of a yeah, at a super rugby team and um through to the role I'm in now, uh I've seen the the power and influence that you can have within every small little role and how important they all are and bringing them all together uh in pursuit of a mutual goal. So that would be, yeah, how I suppose suppose servant leadership to um l leading, for example, um trying to prioritize others, listening more than you speak, but then speaking when it's required. That's probably how I how it shaped my leadership. Um yeah, to date.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Did you did you have like you just talked earlier about sort of in the Highlanders intern role, you saw and felt um when you're when you sort of were undervalued and people didn't make that connection point? Are those sort of not so much negative experience, but those sort of experiences grown you as well? Have you had more have you learned a lot from those things, not just the the good experiences?

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Yeah, absolutely. I think in that specific one, it definitely didn't like did it doesn't make you feel awfully good, you know, when no one's going up to say goodadia and you're just like genuinely you're just on the tools and scrapping away and then um all right, thanks, and you're back to university. Um yeah, so I I had I was definitely really, really um quite I was so impressed, honestly, when I saw the way that the Hurricanes interns were treated. Um, and that's the way like at the Free Jacks, we placed a lot of value in our interns because we had such a lean, lean staffing group, and we saw I saw the value of getting those people contributing properly. So yeah, uh I the least you can do is go and have a conversation with someone and you know making sure they're feeling welcomed and valued. And um, yeah, it doesn't take a huge amount to make people feel valued. So uh yeah, it has it has shaped um certainly shaped how I I treat people in those roles.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Yeah. Well, you you made the point that you had a lean budget at the Boston Free Jacks. So there was sort of a uh economy that needed to be addressed by making people feel welcome so they could actually do stuff. But the the hurricanes is not the case where that there is budgets, but you still have that focus on um those interns. I just think it's I think it's a wonderful thing. Um and it's one of those things that people don't see that's what makes success possible, isn't it? Those little things that you do. Um and now the fact that we've been talking about the interns and the way they're treated having a big influence is is incredible, I reckon. Um how was that experience in in America? Yeah, you were there for a decent amount of tr time. You worked with the Boston Free Jacks essentially from the beginning all the way through to winning three uh championships back to back to back. Um how was that experience um from a rugby perspective and a leadership perspective, going from starting up a professional club to ultimately winning the competition?

SPEAKER_01 27:36

Uh it was a blessing and a curse, I reckon.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Um it was Alex Megalby, the co-founder and CEO at the time, always said to me, like it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take a startup sports business and yeah, see it from being in its infancy through to being, you know, slightly older child. Um so, and he was definitely right, like it wasn't a wicked opportunity. In all honesty, it like it nearly killed me at certain times. It just took so much work like a huge amount of work and investment emotionally and otherwise to make it all work. Um, but it was definitely quite quite formative for me in becoming a yeah, becoming a professional in the sports industry. Uh, and it definitely put me on a fast track as well to being able to make so many risk mistakes quickly. And you know, I'd only been there for about a year or less than a year when they said, Oh, do you think you could do the recruitment? Um, and I was oh well, I can give it a go, but you know, I've never done it before. So um, but what an awesome opportunity is like a geez, uh 24, 25-year-old to try to assemble a professional rugby team with without too much of an idea as to what you're doing. So it definitely put me on a fast track and I made a lot of mistakes early.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

That's the best way to do it, isn't it? Like just jump jump on in if you can. I I'd say that's incredibly rare that someone well mate shows testament to yourself too, and your character that um an owner of a professional sports team would entrust so much to just a young fella. It shows mate there's a there's a lot of belief in you as a person, but just being thrown into something and saying single swim and you clearly have swam very well, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Yeah, and it's definitely a like I see it here at the Hurricanes, like you either get people to the pinnacle level of say coaching by recruiting them and like they're just at that level, or you actually develop them, and that's a lot harder to do, and there's so much value in being able to take people and develop them through might be an analysis or physiotherapy, but at some point you need to gamble, and then then when you do gamble, there's a risk inherently that you you lose some performance in the interim. So it's always like a really tough balance, I think, to to get that right. Um yeah, but I've I definitely seen and thought a lot about that recently when hiring is to, yeah, there's two ways of doing it.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

What what are the ways?

Leadership Growth Through Every Role

SPEAKER_02 30:10

What are you what are you looking for?

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Yeah, well, you're either looking for someone with the with those experiences who is closer to the finished products as a result of their experiences, or you're looking to get someone with the right mindset, skill set, and then give them the experiences within your environment and a clear plan to becoming world-class or you know, whatever the final the final goal is within your program. So um it's probably, yeah, it's it's something that's it's hard to do. Uh uh, and you're often looking for that final pro that finished product uh right away. Um which maybe within an organization, I suppose you've got, yeah, within say a super rugby club, you've got people in my role that are looking longer term and you're trying to develop for the long term and to have sustained success. And then you've got people say, not saying Clark's this way, because I don't think he is, but potentially at times you'd have head coaches that are like, no, we just need to win now, get the best people in right now, and then they leave and it kind of all crumbles around them. So in my sort of role, you want to prevent that, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Yeah, and how how important is character when you're when you're looking to build a team?

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Yeah, um yeah, I was thinking about that and trying to trying to give you a good answer. So because often yeah, I think character is it's the ability at times to be a bit selfless and to put the team first. And I think you probably need a majority of your team that are that way inclined. But then some of the best players and staff and people at their roles are more selfish than selfless, I think. And probably for good reason that that's what makes them really good. So you do need a sprinkle of those people in there as well. Um, yeah, so then it probably comes back to balance, really, like getting the right mix for your club. And in one club, you might be able to get away with having way more people that are, you know, a little bit more on the selfish end of the spectrum. Um, but I think within the hurricanes, if I look around at the moment, you've definitely got a mixture of people that are yeah, weighted more towards the selfless side.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Hmm. So it's just having that right mix of people, right? Whatever it is for you. Um it's not always about having the the smartest necessarily, it's just the mix, correct?

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Hmm. Yeah, yeah. But then kid the character question, like we I just yesterday I had a conversation with Clark and we're talking about bringing X player in, and he said, yep, they fit from a playing perspective, but what influence does that person have on um these players who he plays NPC with? Like, is it positive or negative? And if it's negative, does that counteract the the positive that he brings in from a rugby playing standpoint? So it's all of those considerations all the time that go on, isn't it? When you're hiring and bringing people in, trying to work out yeah, what will it work?

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Yeah, I think that's a really important thing for the the public actually to actually know. Like sometimes yeah, when selections happen, uh the consensus, oh, why wasn't so-and-so picked? And then knowing that in the background, um, the best head coaches and management teams don't just look at the on-field stuff, they look at the impact that a character trait or personality style of a person influences those around you. And sometimes it's it's great and sometimes it's poor, but sometimes it's just the mix between well, we're not sure if that'll fit this current group. And it's not just a matter of they're a good rugby player or they're good at what they do, it's how they fit into this dynamic fabric of people um and and the ripples that they leave across more than just themselves.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

I agree. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Well, when we're talking about sort of selection stuff, it's it's been a wonderful year for the hurricanes, results-wise, and on and off field and what they're doing for the city, but there's also there's been four new War Blacks selected, and three of them were hurricanes. Um that's pretty awesome. How do you reckon your environment has helped push uh these three players, um Xavier, Fehi and Josh, up into that next tier?

SPEAKER_01 34:26

How is what they're doing with you guys um produced all blacks? Do you reckon?

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Yeah, so uh a couple of things. I I think each of those players has a really strong relationship with the staff member, one coach in particular. So Xavier has a really strong relationship with Whopper. Um Fehey um has a really strong relationship stemming from the Sevens program with Clark, and then Josh Morby has done a huge amount of work this year with CJ, Corey Jane. So I think those relationships have been been big in their yeah, their continued development and and enabling them to express themselves to the best of their ability on the field.

Hiring For Character And Team Fit

SPEAKER_00 35:10

And then probably the the other word or the other word that comes to mind is optimism. So there's been a real license to play positively, and all three of those guys, that's what their games are built on. Um you see the way that Xavier carries the ball, he's got a real point of difference in that um for a loose head prop. And uh obviously Ferry and Josh equaled the tri-scoring record, all-ton super rugby tri-scoring record at the end of the year. So they're obviously doing things fairly optimistically. Um, but yeah, there was such such a big emphasis on optimism within our group, which could have only helped those three, I believe. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Well, I just think that's a really lovely point you make about the smaller relationships, the smaller interpersonal relationships inside a team. So it's not just the head coach who has relationships, but it's all these little intricacies, little webs of the cobweb, which are connecting points. And I think it's awesome for coaches to know that you might not necessarily gel with a player, but one of your other staff members might. And for them to have an outstanding connection which goes beyond just the X's and O's of the game, is it can be a powerful uh uh intangible thing sometimes, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Yeah, 100%. You would know better than me, mate, but um yeah, I I I totally think so. I think I saw it this year, they prioritised those relationships with all players. They we had six coaches this year and they split up the 50 players among them, and then they made a real um concerted effort to to connect with them on a regular basis to regardless of whether they're regulars in the starting 15 or they they haven't played a game. So um, yeah, that's a huge part of coaching. It's a huge part.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

Well, just probably a little bit of background on that too. Uh we've certainly done it in the past with that splitting up of as a coaching staff where we in a pre-season we go through the whole 50 and and we talk about who connects with who, who do you think you resonate with, and you sort of pick the the players just personality-wise, you think you can connect with. And one season we even did it with a personality test where we got the whole team to do one of those generic Myers-Briggs type tests, which you can just do online as a simple free one, or you can go the next level up. But then, based on those results, we then uh allocated coaches that matched and fitted a similar personality uh style to the appropriate uh wider staff member. And it it was actually fantastic. Uh me being the head coach, really uh enjoyed ha having to talk to one of my coaches, say, mate, can you just check in with this fella? Because I know you understand his wavelength probably better than I do, because we're quite different. And I think that itself, too, is a wonderful thing any coaching team should do for their team, whether that's sport or business. I think it's very relevant just to understand that people are different. And because of that difference, different people connect differently. So be really active on that. And so the Hurricanes have done that as well, like it's a really active thing in the preseason where they pick their people.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Yeah, it was more uh like I love that. I think that that's awesome, and and somewhere we could we could get to. Um but uh for this year it was more positional group based, because we, you know, we had a Brynn Evans who was the line out forward in his time, and um Jason Holland worked with the nines and tens, the insides this year. Uh Clark were with the loose forwards, so yeah, positionally determined this year for our coaches.

unknown 38:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Well, there's a connection point right there, right? Like everyone's they all love the same stuff.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah, yeah, they do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

It's um it's amazing how front rowers can go for coffee and talk about scrums for 14 hours.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

Well, yeah, Whopper um he did some really cool work. He's yeah, very creative, and the theming type stuff he did with the front row this year was superb. Um yeah, no, they're definitely common link common language, and they've yeah, got yeah, understand what the guys are putting themselves through on a weekly basis, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

And when we were talking about like those sort of connection groups there, what did you learn from Clark Laylor this year? Like outstanding coach and build a really connected group. So what have you weren't learnt just in your first year here, understanding what he's done and working alongside him?

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Yeah, uh he's he's been super impressive. Uh he's a world-class communicator, uh, very emotionally intelligent. There's not a huge amount of variance with him and his emotions between a win and a loss. Um, in regard to that us versus us mentality, like you genuinely kind of forgot you were even playing in opposition on a Saturday, particularly towards the end of the season when pressure could have been going up. It kind of seemed to go down because he just focused even more on the us versus us. Um so I saw that from him. He's very optimistic. Like I believe at the start of the year he won't mind me saying he he asked the coaching staff a question like, how do we how do we win every game in Super Rugby by 50 points? And a lot of people said, Oh, I'm not sure that can be done. Um, but then lo and behold, um, you know, the Hurricanes put 50 on um uh in the quarterfinal, semifinal, and final. So like changing that mindset to have it be a more optimistic one to make the target slightly higher. Um and then he's also very open, like he's open to doing more, doing things differently. We have coach educators, leadership coaches, mindset coaches that actively work with our leadership groups and our our staff at the Hurricanes, and and he's the instigator alongside our CEO, Tony Philp, uh, with that stuff. So yeah, uh forward thinking. Yeah, forward thinking, good communicator and yeah, optimistic, got a point of difference there.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

Mate, I just love that phrase for a head coach. He's the instigator, well, she's the instigator, forward thinking with emotional intelligence, and there's no difference between wins and losses, and asking questions which challenge rooms, like how do we win every game by 50 points? It just lights a fuse, doesn't it? Just you saying this gets me excited. I can only imagine what it gets a a room in a in a group when that's happening all the time, like every day there's these sort of challenges, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:37

I remember when I first arrived and he he told me about it. Um, and I thought, oh like I what you know, you're always like a little bit skeptical around it around it, but fair play to him, like he genuinely turned it into a reality. Um, so yeah, pretty uh pretty innovative.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

It's almost like when you think to like like gee, Steve Jobs always had that sort of distorted reality where he he was just that guy that this can happen, this can happen, and everyone sort of shrugged and went, What are you talking about? And then the more you keep pushing, the more you show that optimism, they're instigating that sort of stuff, it the reality comes true, right? What about some of your players, mate? Like what about like your captain um Dupa C? You know, he seems to represent everything the hurricanes are all about. Like, how much do players like that? He's played a hundred games this year, how do they, guys like them, him sort of shape the culture of a group, your your key leaders?

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Yeah, uh at the hurricanes here, they they speak a lot about growing maturity of people and uh they invest into that. They they they put players through challenges and they support them in ways that hopefully will grow their maturity and ability to deal with situations and to be level-headed. And duplicate's probably been a really good example of someone who's growing a lot uh in that regard. He he comes across as being incredibly mature, very balanced. He's yeah, the ultimate gentleman around the environment, really. Uh, and then he's the standard setter too within the group. He's the guy that demands excellence of others, like if people slip up him, the lights of dupes, Brad Shields, they're they're very equipped to to pull people up on it and just to hold people accountable to you know the agreed to standards within the group. So um yeah, he's pretty well-rounded duplicate.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

I I love it how you mentioned like you put the the the the organization, Hurricanes put players through challenges to essentially work on some of that character stuff, which has nothing to do with the on field performance. It's about how they are as people. Is that something the organization places a lot of value on, like the character improvement?

SPEAKER_00 43:57

Yeah, we do. We've got a guy, Christian Penny, uh Who is a really um interesting fella. He was the director at the New Zealand School of Drama and Art, I believe it was called in Wellington. And and he he was an actor, essentially. That was his that was his trade. He taught students how to act, um, a drama theatre type guy. And he comes in and he really encourages people to speak about things that may often sit unspoken for too long. Um and to to bring those conversations up and to be real, one of our things at the Hurricanes is to be open and he he encourages that. So um yeah, that's been next level. Like how how good they do that, how how well they inter interwind Christian into how our coaches think the language we use, how we can coach better, what we're

Optimism And A Wider Performance Lens

SPEAKER_00 44:50

not doing well enough, what we're not talking about at the moment. Um Yeah, I think back a few weeks before the final, um, we had a meeting up in Auckland with all of our staffing group around why would we not win Super Rugby at the moment? Like what's not going well and what are we not saying right now that would hold us back? And we had a just put a voice recorder in the middle of the room and everyone had an out of our discussion around what's holding us back, and um, and that's driven by Clark and and our leaders at the club. So um yeah, uh they definitely prioritised it.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Well, that's that would just that's a fantastic thing that you were top of the table, and then uh prior to those playoffs, you're like, what's holding us back? What's you know, and really doing a full 360 review in season, even though you're at the top of the table. That that's some incredible forward thinking and and and consciousness about self, particularly from Clark, but from the whole organization.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Yeah, it is. No, it is, and it was again I had very little to do with I had very little to do with it. I just you know was observing. Um but but yeah, it's it's impressive the way they are thinking about high performance here at the hurricanes, and yeah, I guess the next thing is to continue to evolve it and get better at it.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Yeah, it's certainly that phrasing, don't rest on your laurels in high performance, is something which obviously you guys are doing particularly well. And I even enjoy, I I really enjoy the fact that you're not just a lot insular in your looking, that you're actually searching out people that can add edge even if they're not in the sport you're in, right? But you're looking at drama uh experts to come and help delivery and your wording and how your your tone affects things because it does. Um and it's just wonderful to see a a a lens which is super wide and you you're taking the best bits of anything, and I think for a coach's that is that is awesome, and particularly for this sport because it's a chaotic sport with a lot of variables all over the show. There's a lot of intangible stuff which makes a huge difference, and to to search far and wide for things that make an impact is is a must, I reckon, and you guys are clearly well ahead of that. What do you reckon about some of the other remarkable stories, mate? Like I the one of the ones that just got me this year is like Cam Roygaard's comeback from injury. I I just think that's a cool story, and it's it's always surpr uh it's no surprise that great teams tend to have great runs of you know, all players available, all that stuff, but I don't reckon it's luck sometimes. I reckon when your environment's great, players seem to come back quicker. These these sort of, you know, that sort of thing. What do you reckon, mate? That did how do how does the injured players come back to contribute to culture even when they're not on the field? Like what is what is Cam doing when he's when he's injured that helps grow this culture?

SPEAKER_00 47:55

Yeah, um, like I suppose we've also got uh NDCIS, which is a world-class facility, and and like I remember there was a there was a player that had back spasms and uh during a training session, and like three minutes later he's in the hot pulse uh to ahead of a Saturday to try to um you know shake it out essentially and just nah get him out get him out of training. Uh let's get him recovering now so that he's gonna be good to go for Saturday. So having that at our disposal is definitely a point of difference. Like I've I've heard our medical staff have talked about we we always beat recovery timelines because of the the quality of the recovery that our players are able to get at the facility. Um, and then yeah, Cam would be a great example if he had a minor lower leg thing going on towards the back end of the year, and uh you'd barely know he was injured. He was like out for I don't know, a week or two, and then he's just back back like perfect right after. So Yeah, question, um, how do we involve in them? Like Brett Cameron, he obviously had a catastrophic knee injury at the start of the year, and he's been involved in the attack strategy meetings throughout the course of the the season and playing a like a key role in in that and lending his IP and his all of his experience to help the team. And when we won, he was the one guy that I kind of watched and I saw he was genuinely as excited and happy as any other player having barely barely played on the field this year. And I thought that was awesome that you know he he still cared that much, and that's pr possibly down to his maturity, but also down to um probably how well our coaching group had him involved.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

I I think I I go back to you earlier, Steve, about the value placed on interns. Um, and I think it's the same sort of concept with for coaches to be aware of when players are injured, um, they want to feel value, they want to feel that they're helping, they're making a difference because it's team support and giving roles, and you and you mentioned there with um uh Cameron around giving them a part of the strat attack to do, giving them a little little niche, which one helps the coaches, just that another point of difference and and a different lens, but also it helps him, and then it helps the team, and then it connects interconnects everybody, and that's that intangible thing which makes someone feel really valued and goes b above and beyond, even though they can't do you know the physical stuff. And I just think that's something we as coaches need to really be mindful of in group settings.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

Yeah, yeah, no, a hundred percent, and it can be hard to do, eh, because you only got so much you only got so much time and um you got all these things to think about and get right, don't you? I don't I don't envy coaches.

SPEAKER_02 50:51

Yeah. Well mates, it's just I'm really intrigued too, like around like this is the kind of thing that a little a lot of stuff happens when coaches aren't around. Like this like not just in like meetings, the coaches have an impact, but they also there's these invisible things like that, like the injured players feeling valued, which happens outside of like the meetings in the formalised space. What how much of culture do you reckon is is those informal things around the clubhouse which make a difference?

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Yeah, I think it's probably a combination of both, like uh you you need a level of a like competency and player confidence in what you're doing uh in in the work products uh to it to an extent and that comes from meetings, that comes from being really organized. So I think you without that it becomes really hard to develop a strong culture if you don't have that already in place. And then yeah, the connection, the the players and staff going above and beyond really uh sets the tone off the field. Um prioritizing being selfless, connecting away from work. It's like investing in those things, like the hurricanes had a a golf group of 20, and that's just one example of a connection away from from uh work,

Keeping Culture Strong Off The Field

SPEAKER_00 52:10

but that only helps, I think, when on a Wednesday the guys are going out and spending four hours together on a golf cart. Um yeah, that that only helps. So yeah, uh it's a bit of both, I believe. Um, and then the culture thing is kind of like the residue of of of you know running a really organized ship.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

This this probably for a management group and a coaching staff, when you hear that on an off day, 20 players are going out together um to play golf is a pretty good indication there's something growing quite strongly in your environment because that's a choice they get to make. They're not getting that's not the job. It's it's cool, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 52:54

That is cool. Yeah, it is. Yeah, and the coaches were all out there, like Clark's out there. Um, you know, they're they're and it's just yeah, awesome to be able to probably spend time with each other. Not that I was I I've been out there with them, but and then I like I'd be surprised if Clark spoke about any rugby when he was out there. I don't think much rugby would be talked about on the Wednesday, so um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

Well th that's another one that's probably highlights a really good culture when coaching staff and players on an off day can go out and do something like a game of golf together by choice, and that it's not awkward or strange or yeah, you it's not a s doesn't that is not a separated group. That is a hundred percent aligned group when players are happy to go play golf with the coach on an off day. Twenty of them, and that there's not a problem or an issue, and there's no rugby talked about. I think that's wonderful. Hmm. Well, mate, just what else, mate? What else have we got? Like when you walk into the hurricanes each day, what what are the little things that that just sparks you off is in your GM role that you go, we're building something special here. Well, you clearly there's already something being built this season, but what what are some of the signs that like outsiders or people that aren't involved in that? What are the what do they never see but you think's a really amazing thing about the hurricanes?

SPEAKER_00 54:21

Yeah, um uh I think it's just so exciting. Like it it's all the things we've spoken about, like it challenges everyone to be on the top of their game and to bring new ideas that are gonna make make it better. So like coming in, I I quickly I quickly understood, like, man, I'm gonna have to be way better than I've ever been to succeed here for a long period of time. And I've thought that was really exciting and it's motivated me to choose things and to take opportunities to to invest in myself and get better um so that I can I can truly add value. Um like there's not it's not it's not boring at all. There's like even if we have a a recruitment meeting or whatever it is, like you want to come and really, really organise for that and and do do it justice because everything else has been done to such a high level. Um yeah, so like I I really do believe the staying open piece and like how much that's prioritized is just such a point of difference. And um, yeah, it's really exciting coming into an environment like that. Beyond that, um yeah, not nothing's really too revolutionary, is it? Like the guys have we start our week with a coffee connection, um, the coffee machine gets a lot of gets a lot of use. Uh we've got a coffee partner, thankfully, that drops the beans off and the milk gets delivered once a week. But that probably sets the tone for what we're trying to be about too. At the end of the day, it's just rugby and you know, I I guess yeah, everyone's gonna try their hardest to win every game, but um yeah, there's more important stuff too, like uniting and exciting the region and yeah, trying to to you know give a really good account of ourselves. Um I'm not sure if I've answered your question that well. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

No, mate, I think like you just mentioned in the coffee, there's a essentially a coffee budget and the importance placed on that from the GM. Uh understanding that people gather around the coffee and you have good coffee, you have better conversations. Um that sounds sometimes like it's a maybe a little bit silly, but a a lot of professional organizations that have huge ongoing success value conversations. And if coffee's the way that people connect and come together over something like that, then spend as much money as as you can. And certainly Wellington, you don't have a shortage of good beans and roasteries around coffee. I would say it's some of the best coffee in the world, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And probably maybe the other thing I haven't spoken to, just the women's program. Um and the women's program, it was a really cool opportunity, like a cool thing that happened this past year when we had um private ownership, or new private ownership come into the club. They had an opportunity to to not renew their license um of power with New Zealand rugby, and they chose to do it. They're like, no, we we're gonna do it, and we're all in. So they've chosen to double down on uh professionalizing that program, resourcing it better. All the athletes stay on site for the 12 weeks of the OPicky campaign, and um there has been a real improvement in in how we're learning to be like one club together and prioritise our power program and and do a better job there for for the woman. So I think that that's been quite cool, and it's been a program I've been able to see and be a little bit more immersed in um at the grass, uh at the um at the coalface, I suppose. Like I've been in all the meetings and been listening and trying to work out where I can help. But it's it's cool to see a program that is probably closer to a major league rugby team than where the supermen's are at the moment, and it's easier to see where we can improve quickly at that level. So at the same time, we've got those challenges going on in the club as well, which is which is really good.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

That that's a really lovely statement that you like this is again the reflection. You're not just looking internally at what you do, but you're you're looking out, bringing the lens up. How do we bring the the other part of our club into our environment, into the successful thing? How do we develop the women's program and grow that to the same effect that the Hurricanes men's team has had? It's it's wonderful to hear this sort of alignment and connection piece between between the organisation and all parts.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

Yeah, yeah, it was we had our uh I had a preseason game at NZCIS the other day. It was like blowing a gale, sideways rain, um which was less than ideal, but we had a curtain raiser where Manakuda came down and played St. Mary's um before we played the blues, and then all the girls had um had a a meal after uh and all sung wiatas. Um and it was like it was like, man, well this is this is definitely becoming something pretty special, and there's a few awesome minds in there that are driving that progression of of the power program, but it's good to see them competing uh you know a lot harder and um yeah to a to a better level than they have in the past.

SPEAKER_02 59:39

Yeah, man, and certainly w with me hearing this as an old boy off the club, um just hearing these sort of initiatives and these focus points is just it's a joy, mate. And this is this is what we talked about earlier, spreading the ripples that go far beyond just the team. And and I'm in Sydney these days, and I'm proud about the Hurricanes and and what their organization is doing. And certainly the alumni who connect pretty regularly on on their WhatsApp group are uh equally as proud. And the chats that go back and forth and hearing this sort of stuff is is just a pleasure to hear, mate. So well done, it's bloody awesome. Now, Tom, we've got time for one more question. It's a question we finish with. It always sparks a little bit of interest. Is what's one belief you have about cultural leadership that you agree with that you believe that potentially your peers or contemporaries would disagree with?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

Yeah, I struggled to come up with something too good for this one because I I I think I did come up with something that I think people would probably agree with it more than they would disagree, but maybe some would disagree, so I'll throw it out there. But it's probably just that performance and culture aren't mutually mutually exclusive. Like it's very hard to have one without the other. You you do need a level of confidence in the program and the delivery of your content to be able to leverage enjoyment, um, you know, selflessness, um, excitement, connection out of out of a program. Um that said, the when I left the free jacks this past year, they they had their first losing season in a while and they still managed to have a pretty good culture by all accounts. So maybe I'm actually uh contradicting myself. But um, yeah, I do think that for a period of time you need to have both to be able to like really capitalyse on on the cool off-field culture side of things.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:30

I really enjoy that statement, mate. Leverage enjoyment. I think that's a good life life thing to be doing too, mate.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

Yeah, I'll yeah, try to uh try to live to it and do a better job doing that over the next few weeks.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:46

Tom Kinley, what an absolute pleasure, um, GM of Hurricanes Rugby, to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today. If I may, I'd just like to wrap up with my three key takeaways that I got from this incredible conversation with with you, mate. And they are these. Number one, every role matters, and that's how we win. I loved how we spend a lot of time talking about like the value of how an intern feels connected in this environment, and not just interns, but injured players as well. And the more the leads of an organization can draw people in, make them feel connected and part of the program, no matter what their status or their role, leads to such amazing things which you can probably never really objectify, but they are there, they're very real. So I think that's a really important part of you know almost servant leadership for coaches and management to do. Number two, I loved, I loved uh you talked about Clark Lador being the instigator and his head coaches particularly. I think that is a big part of the role. You talked about phrases like us versus us, and he challenged the team by saying, How do we win by 50 plus every game? And he really doubled down on this unite and excite vision that you guys had in everything he did. He was forward-thinking, emotionally intelligent, and you could never tell between them whether you'd won or lost. And he was this voice of optimism for the team, I think. All head coaches particularly, and coaches in general should be instigators and sparking an environment to life. And number three, I I love the way the Hurricanes have adopted this wider lens on what they look for in high performance. They don't just look narrow around the X's and O's of the game, they search far and wide to give themselves a little point of difference. The one reference was looking at drama students and how you can improve your voice, not on the field, but

Culture And Performance Belong Together

SPEAKER_02 1:03:40

off it, your tone, your delivery, and just getting together and talking about these things with experts from other parts of the world and other industries. Clearly shows that the hurricanes are a forward thinking, pumped up environment. And I love hearing that. Tom, thank you for your time on the Coaching Culture podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:01

Thanks, Ben. Appreciate it. Well summarized.