How a maths teacher became a world class coach | Noel McNamara

Winning a major trophy is supposed to be the moment, but Noel McNamara doesn’t romanticize it. He explains why a title can feel like relief for ten minutes, and why the harder, more meaningful work starts immediately after: rebuilding energy, sharpening clarity, and chasing improvement in a world where success keeps moving further away the moment you get close. If you coach rugby, lead a team, or care about high-performance culture, this is a grounded look at what it takes to stay ahead without burning out. 

We get practical about coaching leadership and player ownership. Noel shares how the best coaches and best players “work it out together,” why collaboration still requires real accountability, and how a team culture breaks when feedback only travels one direction. We also dig into the language of coaching: simple cues, clear principles, and creating learning environments that force problem-solving instead of passive listening. One story captures it perfectly: showing up with 21 slides, being told to bring three, and realizing connection beats information every time. 

The conversation also goes deeper than tactics. Noel talks about regrounding, staying connected to home, and why fun matters even in elite professional rugby. We explore development metrics that actually last, like whether young athletes still want to play after a season with you, plus the discipline of instant feedback that helps people change behavior now, not next week. 

If you enjoy honest coaching stories and specific leadership tools you can use immediately, subscribe, share this with a coach or manager who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway. What’s the one habit you’d change to help your team get better tomorrow?

Is your school the best in your country? Let me know Ben@coachingculture.com.au

Silverfern Sports
If you need great rugby gear, Silverfern are the best. Innovative high quality rugby kit.

Buy your set of "How to be a great Coach" By Ben Herring books here (amazon worldwide)

https://www.amazon.com.au/s?k=ben+herring&crid=1R6QYBT8QVPS1&sprefix=ben+herring%2Caps%2C221&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

Contact Ben direct: Ben@coachingculture.com.au

Transcript

Welcome And A Grounding Ritual

SPEAKER_01 1:23

People talk about the the Champions Cup uh and and winning the Champions Cup is awesome for ten minutes in a changing room and it's great feeling, it's a feeling of relief. And then what's next? Sport doesn't build character. It reveals it. You're just not afraid to try things. That works great. Let's go. That didn't work. Okay. What do we learn from it? We move on. We would talk a an awful lot about responsibility activity. The environment that you create, the connection that you create, the relationship that you create. And the really tricky fact is there are times where you have to be able to say to somebody that's not good enough to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Welcome to coaching culture, podcasts about cultivating culture and leadership and hearing up and loving the starting popular actors. And one of Europe's highest scoring attacking teams. The forest is Null coach at Ireland and Ireland with its father like the pathway and Ireland number 20. And New Zealand with North Carolina and South Africa with its cars. He has just returned in France to 2029. And an interesting little fact about Mel is he did not play professionally in South, which makes his rise to one of the world's best coaches even cooler and highlights the quality of his coaching even more. Noel, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Great to get the opportunity to chat to you. Yeah, a little bit unseasonal here. Not unseasonal. It should be warm, but uh yeah, we're certainly not used to having 30 degrees here in Ireland. So uh yeah, it's been uh been a welcome change. It's been pretty uh pretty tough in Bordeaux for the last uh the last month or so with uh yeah, with the heat wave that has been air up into the 40s. And yeah, Crete was beautiful. Yeah, highly recommend it.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

And just off there, we were talking about this lovely quote which I'd like to start off with, mate. You talked about the Zulu quote about you must put your feet on the land your ancestors walked every six months to reground yourself. What a lovely statement to start a podcast, mate. How how has that sort of statement that had an impact on you?

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Yeah, it's just something that that really struck me at the time uh when when I was at the sharks um in uh in South Africa. It was something that the Zulus spoke about. Uh just that concept that obviously when when they're away from from home, uh whether that be, whether they're overseas, whether that be they're at one of the franchises in South Africa, that every six months uh the the concept was that you had to to walk the land or walk the ground that your ancestors walked. Uh to reconnect, uh reground yourself, uh maybe uh yeah, re find your purpose um as as much as anything else. But it it just was a beautiful uh concept that I just loved. And maybe I think when you're away from home, it it probably hits home a little bit more. Um you know, bizarrely, St. Patrick's Day, for example, was never something really that when I was young was ever anything. You know, it was uh just another day in the calendar. But when we were in South Africa, it it became something. We actually really enjoyed it, and it was kind of a family day, and it was something that uh we taught a lot more about home and we reconnected a lot more with home. And uh yeah, it's bizarre the little things that kind of um I suppose uh are more impactful. And uh yeah, that that little phrase and and principle was something that I I loved, and and uh it's guys like Intatuka Mutunu and and uh Pepsi Butilesi and these guys that would have spoken about it. And I often send them a message on Instagram or or uh or uh on um on uh WhatsApp when I'm at home and I'll send a picture of of the cattle here, uh particularly machunu. He's he's got cattle over in uh in South Africa as well, and uh just say I'm I'm I'm reconnecting and regrounding myself and uh yeah, just uh just a great uh great little uh little thing, I guess, to pick up along the way.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yeah, and it's probably nice for for for coaching, particularly of a lot of professions, isn't it? Because you're giving so much of yourself away when you just reconnect, it's about yourself, isn't it? Bringing bringing yourself back to center or yourself back to uh level. Um, because a lot of coaching is giving to others, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I I I think uh you know, coming home as as well for me, it it has always been uh been something you get to empty the mind. You get to we've got a little farm here at home and try and do some farming, and and uh often it's the the most uh banal jobs the better, uh where literally you just kind of cruise around on the tractor and you don't really have to think an awful lot and you don't have to worry about too many things. Uh and uh yeah, I love it. I I I absolutely love it. It it's just a brilliant, uh I find it very therapeutic is probably the the best phrase that I would use. And and uh you know the the the real the reality with coaching is as well it's not it's not a physically taxing job, um, but it is mentally. You are you are kind of constantly on, I guess, and and uh you know you're constantly trying to uh yeah evolve is is the is the biggest thing. Um I I remember uh my first season in Bordeaux was it was brilliant. It was a great year. It was very tough around learning the language and and uh and everything um everything around that. And you know, we we we had a you know we had a good season in in some respects. Uh we lost some disappointing games. We lost the quarterfinal of the of the Champions Cup to Harlequins at home in a game that we should have won probably. Um the history of the club and and then lost very, very heavily uh against a rampant Toulouse team uh in the final. And I remember just being yeah, just being wiped at the end of the season and and kind of we went on our our holidays and uh went on a break and everything else and uh got back in the first day of the preseason. I remember meeting uh uh Matthew Jellyberg, and you said, okay, so what's the plan? I was like, oh I I haven't really uh you know, I'm kind of finalizing that and uh kind of formulating where we're going from here. He's like, we we weren't good enough, so what's the plan? Um and yeah, that that's that's the reality, isn't it? You know, things things uh move on very, very quickly, and uh it's really important to try and regenerate the batteries and and and equally it's really important to evolve and and uh I guess uh you know one thing we probably learned last season as well, we lost uh the the final top 14 again uh after extra time this time, 33 all um, and and we were really,

The Mental Cost Of Coaching

SPEAKER_01 8:03

really close. Um but success is a moving target, and at the start of the season we were probably a lot further away than we'd realised. Um and and other teams had had uh made a lot of progress, the likes of Racing, the likes of uh Poe, uh the likes of Stade Francais, who hadn't been in the mix the previous year in the top 14, um Montpellier, uh you know, who recently had contested the Access match to go down to the to the to Prodido. So j just understanding how incredibly competitive it is, and and just because you're we're nearly there, the assumption is oh well you'll just get there. But it it it's not like that, unfortunately. Um and uh yeah, that's been a real uh yeah, real eye-opener as well. So it's just finding the balance between yeah, reconnecting, re-rounding, uh getting a break, whilst equally understanding that uh we've got to hit the ground running.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

How do you how do you deal with um when you get like just in your situation, like people coming at you with like, what's the plan? And and you're and you're a bit shaky because you come off a big holiday and like what do you say what do you say, mate? What's your advice to to coaches when you when you get that sort of uh critiquing or someone hitting you up like that? That's a that that could lose a lot of coaches, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I don't know. One thing maybe have a plan. Um I I I I think the main thing, and I think this is what I would always uh come back to Ben, is that good coaches and good players will work it out together. And and that's very much you know my relationship with with with Matthew and and with Max Lucou and with the players in Bordeaux, is that uh it's never a case of okay, this is what you're going to do. Um it's a case of okay, we're gonna work this out together and we're gonna find the solutions. And and that's very much what we would have uh yeah, just got busy getting better. Um I I think uh I I would have the big learning for me is you I would need more stimulus coming into that. Uh, you know, in the offseason last season, I went and and uh and spent a week with the Melbourne Storm in Australia. Um I visited uh Collingwood when I was there, uh sorry, Carlton when

What’s The Plan After Loss?

SPEAKER_01 11:08

I was there. I then went and spent a week with the Brisbane Broncos Um and visited the Brisbane Lions when I was there as well. And that was a brilliant experience, and and it's just finding the balance. It's finding the balance between getting you know that that mental freshness, but also getting just new energy, new ideas, new stimulus. And and um during the course of the year I would have spent a little bit of time with Brentford, uh the soccer team as well in the premiership. And I I think that's the that's the real balance. It's it's just trying to find the opportunity to spend time with the family and and uh and recover, recuperate, and and and equally just trying to have some new new uh stimulus and and and new ideas to because ultimately that's what the the best want. They want to be challenged, whether that be coaches or whether that be um whether that be players, it's exactly the same. So I think for coaches, you want that from your players. What is the plan? Okay, where where how are we evolving? How are we going to get better? Because as I said, that that that idea of of success being a moving target is true no matter what the level is. So what was good enough today probably won't be good enough tomorrow. And you know, you can look at any sport, you can look at the progression of times in the hundred meter sprint, in swimming, in in tennis, in in uh in Formula One. It's exactly the same in rugby and uh you know team sport, individual sport, it's the same. So it's just understanding that you've got to continuously um yeah progress, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Man, I love that. Good coaches and good players work it out together. They get busy getting better, and the best actually want to be challenged. And I think I think you're right, mate. Like it's it's almost feeding on each other, right? Like the best players want to be challenged by the coaches, and the best coaches want to be challenged by the players. It's tit for tat, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:48

It's it's it's uh yeah, it's it's it's it's it's 100%. It it it's absolutely that, and and and that that is very much how how we would work at Bordeaux, very much how how would have would have worked at the Sharks as well. And and I'm very lucky, I've got very, very good pairs. Um you know, and it's it I mentioned a couple of them there, but uh there are others uh uh as well. It it's not just Max and and and Matthew, it it is very much across the board, but to me it's it's a collaborative effort. Um that that is very much uh how how I would see it. Whilst you know, ultimately you're accountable as well. I I am accountable, so it's it's not trying to to pass the buck, it it's not trying to uh um to to avoid responsibility or avo uh avoid accountability, but that is very much how I would see it. Um I was very lucky of uh you know you you mentioned in your uh your your your very uh very generous intro, but I'm very lucky uh at the the experiences that I've had uh you know within Ireland and and uh you know the opportunity to learn and develop there, but also uh around the world. And and you know, New Zealand is probably one of the the most accelerated growths that I had with North Harbour. Um I was very lucky with the coaches that I worked there, the likes of Dan Hallengahoo and uh Tom Coventry, um uh two two excellent coaches that you know obviously had had been involved in in Super Rugby already. And and uh for me, I probably got a real insight into that kind of player ownership. Uh and um just increased player involvement. Um and that's something that I really really enjoyed, and and it was a real uh eye-opener for me, to be honest about it. Um, you know, in Ireland we're very much kind of the coach, you know, probably tells you uh what to do, maybe how to do things, but probably we we we never really delved enough into that why part, why you do things, and and uh probably learned a lot around around pedagogy, uh and and you know, became very interested in in the you know the work of the likes of Wayne Smith, Lynn Kidman, um, you know, accolade-centered coaching, player center coaching, uh understanding that process and and players being much more involved. And when I come back to Ireland, uh I was I was the the coach of the RS20s at the time and we we implemented it, you know, in many ways it was a big leap, but you know, we had uh you know a leadership group, an operational group, an attack group, a defense group, and with the players presenting the plan, uh 19, 18, 19 years of age, uh, you know, Harry Byrne, Jack Crowley, Craig Casey presenting the attack plan, um, the likes of uh, you know, um David McCann, uh Thomas Ahern, Tom Stewart, John McKee uh presenting the plan on defense. And it was just for me, it was just such a brilliant uh uh learning curve and learning experience and and something that that I've tried to yeah to hone and develop. You know, I said did it with the 20s, we did it down in South Africa. Um, you know, and and sometimes you gotta be comfortable comfort comfortable in awkward silences over times when you're you're asking questions and there's very little coming back, very difficult uh, you know, to to do it in French um initially, and and uh kind of that that was a real yeah, real learning uh curve as well, I suppose, for uh for for me and Crash Course, I suppose is probably the best description of it, but you you get better at being brief, be brief, be good, be gone. Um and um yeah, I'm I'm I'm probably uh going against that rule now because I've had a bit so I'll I'll pull the pen

Learning From Other Sports

SPEAKER_01 16:30

there.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

I actually love it, mate. I love it because I've got some quotes from you, like uh this was actually four things you said which stood out to me um that from your New Zealand learnings I read about you, which was one, simplify communication, two, coach principles, not endless detail, three, trust players to solve problems, and four, spend less time talking and more time creating learning environments. I just thought those are four amazing takeaways. And there's a story if you if you'd like to elaborate about your 21 slides that uh Tom Commentary. Can you can you elaborate on that? Because I just think it's a brilliant little uh piece of learning.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Yeah, I I I obviously I'm I'm a teacher originally and and I spent uh I spent 11 years teaching in a in a secondary school in Ireland, maths and PE, obviously coaching at the same time. But uh that that's something that I was always comfortable at with. I was good at presenting, I was good in front of a group, and uh I hadn't coached defence before. So I'd largely uh ironically, you know, as a coach, I'd almost always been the head coach of the teams that I coach. So whether that be in uh in in Clangos with with the senior cup team or with the Irish under 18s, the Irish 20s, Leinster 18s, Leinster 19s, Leinster 20s, I'd almost always been a head coach. So this is one of the first experiences that I had of coaching defence uh specifically and and also a little bit of of being an assistant coach. So I prepared as as that that's that's what I like to do, be well prepared for something. So I arrived uh down and and uh I had uh I had uh all my slides prepared for the defense system and this and that and the other. And I said to TC, I was like, listen, you know, I'm ready for the first meeting, and I've got whatever. He said, How many slides you got? I said, I've got 21. Oh man, that's not gonna work. I want three slides. I was like, TC, that's man, that's impossible. I cannot possibly do that in three slides. He's I met, I want three slides. So I'm scrambling, trying to reduce. Okay, that's gone, that's gone. And you become very, very good very quickly at reducing it. But even then I didn't really know. I was like, TC, this is this is it's crazy. Yeah, you know, I don't understand why. Anyway, I think I eventually got down to six. And I started presenting in the room and looked on one of the players, his eyes were starting to close. I was like, man, what are you okay? You with me, Cookie? And he's like, Oh, yeah, sorry, coach. And it it it wasn't that a lack of desire or a lack of interest or everything else, but it was just that's not how they were engaged. They were very much engaged by being part of the process, and and uh it was rarely somebody at the top of the room delivering content, no matter how good the content is. I don't think if they didn't believe in you as a person. I remember uh, you know, seven weeks in in into my time there, one of the players uh said to me, uh, he's like, Coach, I really believe you want to help me get better, I will do anything for you. But day one, it was just like, Oh, you know, man, there's so many slides. What are you talking about? And and that was uh understanding that ultimately the players there wanted connection first. They didn't want, you know, to be bamboozled with information, with uh, you know, I guess for me, I wanted to show that I know I've prepared well and I know what I'm talking about. But that wasn't what the players wanted. Well, you you know, the players wanted to feel a connection, they wanted to feel, you know, this person wants to help me get better, he wants to help the team

New Zealand Changed How He Teaches

SPEAKER_01 19:45

to get better. And I think once they believed in that, they believed in the person, they believed in in uh in the purpose and the why of this person, then uh and and I I got I got that the wrong way around, I guess. And and uh it was just a brilliant um a brilliant learning for me. Um and and then I I guess I I I uh you know was just very lucky. Someone like James Parsons, who who's a guy that uh you know still obviously works in New Zealand in in um in Ruby as a podcast. I think he he works. We're still in touch uh every so often, but he was brilliant, absolutely brilliant, and and just so direct with his feedback. Noel, that's good. That's not great. Uh you confuse me today, you give me real clarity today. And and that was just a brilliant, uh yeah, just a brilliant uh experience as well. And and I think for me, it was across the board. I think I've spoken before about it, just the pedagogy of New Zealand. I spoke about the girls and they're learning to swim. Um, the the girls who are learning to horse ride uh in New Zealand, they were asked what did they think, what did they feel. Um, and I just thought, well, you know, they're just amazing questions in Ireland. They were just told what to do. This is how you swim, this is how you ride a horse. Whereas in New Zealand it was very much a case of, well, you know, what do you feel with the cadence of the horse there? What do you think you could do to make it easier? It's like, okay, we you know, you gotta you gotta move with the rhythm of the horse. Whereas in Ireland, do your down-ups, go up and down, and the girls would be bouncing up and down on the saddle. And I just felt that it it was just uh across the board, it was just great how um that whole pedagogy and that process of learning and uh the ownership, the involvement of of uh of people, uh yeah, was was transformational for me, really, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

I love them, mate. Like the almost it's almost like you got to connect before that the credibility piece. Is that what you were sort of striving for at the start and realizing you didn't you hadn't connected?

SPEAKER_01 21:35

You tried to push out information overload to to show that you you know Yeah, I g I g I I guess it it's just you're you're coming in, it it's it's the first meeting, and and you just want to show to the players, okay, this is this is what I'm I'm I'm bringing to the table. This is whereas that wasn't what they wanted, and that wasn't what they needed uh at at that particular time. I I was and and like everything else, there was rash rational thought behind what was uh where I was coming from. It was a short lead-in. I think we had a week before the first game, and I I I thought that that's what the the you know was was the best course of action without really considering what the players needed, and um uh I would have flipped that completely on its head, uh, you know, in my next, you know, first with the Irish twenties, but then in in the Sharks it was the opposite. It would have been okay, the first thing is we connect with the players, we understand where they're coming from, what they need. Um, you know, and and similarly at Bordeaux it was exactly the same. And and uh I I think that's that's what it experience is what you get when you get what you didn't want, and and but when you talk about about learning, it needs to be a permanent change in behavior. So I think that's probably one of the the key things for me. Uh I know it's a cliched phrase, isn't it? Like learning, you know, I took the learnings from it and and this and that. But it is important, you know, and your ability to learn is is really, really important. And and uh um for me that was uh yeah, that was certainly a watershed moment.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Man, I love that. Man, that's super cool. And I actually really enjoyed, I think it's uh a cool piece of feedback what James Parsons gave you about he gave you as a player really clear feedback. He said, You confused me today, or you gave me real clarity today. And that's actually pretty special, and that's probably pretty rare for players to actually be that direct with that information. But it kudos to you for uh providing the avenue where someone can actually walk down that sort of feedback and confidently uh give it to you. And the learning you must have that is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

I I would kick back a little bit, Ben. I would say that that it depends on how the feedback is received.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

From yourself?

SPEAKER_01 23:43

So yeah. Yep. How would you recommend it?

SPEAKER_00 23:46

So taken or how to do it.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

I just think you you you you can you can say it's rare, but it it it depends. F feedback is a gift. So it depends on how you receive that gift. So like there's feedback is available all the time, and and uh for for me, I would receive it as a gift. Um and uh you've got to be open to feedback. It it depends on on the environment that you create, the connection that you create, the relationship that you create. And the the really tricky part is there are times where you have to be able to say to somebody okay, there's there's you know, there's feedback to soon, but that's not good enough from you. Yeah, you know, and that that's the really hard because you get feedback all the time, you start to get whingy, and you start to get this, you start to get that. So it it it can't just be uh there has to be a a time and a place, but I think it's really important to to have that um to to have that ability to receive feedback while it's also recognising there are times when saying, okay, but it's time it's time for the mirror here as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

How do you how do you suggest that coaches would potentially do that? Because it's it's it's it's a nice thing to say sometimes to be open and receptive, but in the heat of the battle when you're getting defensive and things like that, the lens which you are receiving it can sway how you take it, right? So how do how do you be open enough to to take it well?

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Yeah I d I I think it it depends. I mean certainly that one with with with James would have been just a regular very very regular conversation. James is the leader of the defense and and uh we would have spoken pretty much every day um and it would have been at the at the end of training and and uh or or later on that day it's just like man I I don't you did not get clarity today. That was not clear and I'm unsure now and if he's unsure the reality is I'm sure there are other people that are unsure. So like that's the the gift three so there is a timing there there is a time and a place uh piece to it as well um and and it it's finding the balance between the responsibility of the player and your responsibility to get clarity because that's where there can't be you know this pointing in all kinds of directions while it's his fault. But I I do think that's really important and I do think how in the right manner in the right time how how how feedback is received is really really important. And you know the the learning for for uh for me and and and and for the players is is the same. It's about not making repetitive errors. For me it's about trying to ensure that there's absolute clarity the following day and then for the players it's delivering on it.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Yeah. I think I like what you've said mate like like if James is an understanding or the leader is an understanding and the high chance the rest aren't almost those sort of characters are the barometer of the team's

Feedback, Ownership, And Two Point Five Percent

SPEAKER_00 26:20

understanding right so you almost got to encourage those fellas or girls to you need to be do you need to give me good feedback for the team's benefit right like that's why you're leading yeah 100% with that what is leadership it's ultimately it's trying to make the team better.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

You know we talk all the time about team first. If it's team first it's team first for everybody. It's not just team first because you know that's a nice catchphrase and and everything else like we talk a lot about freedom with responsibility um you know we would talk an awful lot about responsibility is to the team and and and that's at Bordeaux but it it's it's the same with any team um so I I I think for me whatever your concept or phrase is it's about making the boat go faster and and how do you how do you all contribute to doing that? And um yeah to to me feedback it if it's all one way Ben like if it's like the coach is the only one that can give feedback how does that work? How does that work it just it just doesn't and and like it's it it has to be done in the right way there there's no doubt about that and and uh but like I it would be similar at at Bordeaux you know I would encourage the players to give feedback uh you know the French are very expressive and demonstrative sometimes it will be uh very very clear in their body language um but I I would openly I would openly look for it but equally be comfortable saying no I don't agree with you or at some point it's like okay but let's have a look at what what you own in this as well so you've got to own your well whatever if you're in a team environment of of 40 people everybody owns two and a half percent you can't own more than two and a half percent you own two and a half percent but you've got to own your fucking two and a half percent you gotta own it every bit of it so if you're trying to to cheat a little bit on that and okay this week I'm gonna give two percent and next week I'll give three and a half percent and it doesn't exist. So I I think that's that's really important part as well. So it's like it it it cannot be confused for softness or or uh weakness but equally it it it's it's having the the being comfortable in yourself and and and and having the ability to be open and and and and at times it will be critical at times it will be critical and and there are times when when players have said that wasn't good you know exactly like that James one but there's been other ones since then um but it as I said to you uh from the outset uh if we don't seek feedback ourselves I I don't know how you can genuinely believe you can do better.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Yes you got a feedback on the weekend of course um but yeah I think it's important I really do no I think that's that's wonderfully wonderfully important man you're absolutely right but it's it's it's not it's it's a really good point to put on for coaches that you've got a you can't be the only one who gives feedback that's not a that's not a team environment that's a that's a dictatorship isn't it well it's not a collaboration it's not a collaboration that's exactly right mate love it now mate when you're talking about your sort of teaching stuff before I do I I did chuckle um with this quote that you're a former math teacher who never played rugby and and I was is that how how entirely true is that um and I love your journey mate and talking to a a friend of yours he said your nickname was the laminator from your teaching days because of the amount of laminated piece of paper you used to put together is is that still yeah I'm I'm I'm I'm not sure I'm sure I've had I've had plenty of uh of of nicknames in in my time but like I obviously you you you you go through uh a very I've gone through a very long journey you you know what I mean the the reality is I I think I've used the phrase uh accidental coach I probably borrowed that from Joe Schmidt and the reality is I never uh I never set out to be a coach that's that that's the reality you you know what I mean I loved sport when I was younger uh I I actually studied law initially um law and European studies and that was the route I was going to go down and for some reason I always kind of uh you know being a PE teacher was something and I said I loved sport I played every sport it just wasn't rugby uh you know growing up and and uh after two years in in law I I uh I just I didn't enjoy it I I um I I went back uh as not a mature student because I was only 19 and uh I I went and and studied PE teaching and uh the subject I chose was maths.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

I wasn't brilliant at maths I wasn't brilliant at maths in school but I really enjoyed it I really enjoyed just solving maths problems and I really enjoyed the fact that even if I didn't get it right that I could get a lot of credit and recognition for the work that went into getting to that endpoint. So even if the endpoint was wrong there was still a lot of of credit in maths like the the process was always rewarded in maths and that was something that I just enjoyed. So it wasn't that I was a brilliant mathematician I had a very very good memory so if I saw a maths problem done once I could repeat it. So that was that was it I wasn't you know brilliant at uh at maths and and there would have been you know far better people in in uh when when I went and at the university and studied maths but uh yeah that that's that's what I did and and just I guess I I was lucky you know with with some of the lectures uh one of the lectures in particular uh PJ Smith that he he saw something he's just like you know you you are going to be a coach um at that time maybe I didn't know what the sport was going to be and it was far more likely if there was going to be in in uh sports or or or in uh in soccer but which which would have been you know my first love but he he he felt that uh I I would be a coach and that I had the personality and and everything else to to do it and sure just a variety of of different um yeah different things I just started coaching uh you know uh as a as a 21 year old um you know in Limerick initially and in a school in Limerick and and then on from there and like you know if you think about that um that journey from whatever it is to 2005 to now 21 years so yes I definitely have changed um and uh you know I'd like to think from the start there's probably two things that were always pretty consistent uh I worked very hard uh to to learn the game and to do the best for the players that that I coached um you know some of that was was uh it certainly was a big part of of of preparing for everything you know so preparing session plans uh reviewing sessions uh preparing for games reviewing games you know we would have recorded under 13 games back in 2005 and with a VHI yeah yeah exactly yeah well on those uh there were CDs at the time and you'd watch the CDs back and you know there was no sports code there was no huddle there was no nothing you know but that was i i ultimately coaching to me is addictive and and and that's just what it was you know there was never a purpose to be a professional coach that was never I you know started coaching as like a coach because I loved coaching I I loved uh you know seeing a group at the start of the year where we could get to at the end of the year and what and it wasn't it was never I was never outcome basic of course you want to win and and and was

Accidental Coach And Authentic Leadership

SPEAKER_01 33:35

was driven by by that and and everything else but it was far more around the journey and and the memories when you look back are are you know the great moments tended to be in training or the banal stuff meetings or or the connections that we made and and I love meeting people now and there's loads of stories that I've forgotten you know uh from from players and I'm sure they'll they'll absolutely give it to me you know because you're figuring it out that's what I mentioned already good good good players and good coaches figured out together I I was figuring everything out I was figuring out the game how to organize it the one thing I felt was I always could see the game the game always made sense to me if that makes sense. I don't know why but it it it just did and and uh but uh you know you you grow up you you mature you learned you know and uh lots of the stuff that I'm sure I did I I would have been very tough uh hard on on the boys I'm sure um at times we're coming from the right place uh you know about uh ultimately all you ever want is for people to to I I talk about it all the time or certainly less now so but like when when of course in school I I I f and I firmly believe this that that sport doesn't build character it reveals it and and I think rugby is is is one of the games that does that it doesn't build character I don't believe that I think it just reveals what's already there and it helps you to to discover it and to unearth it and and for for us in in in school it wasn't about you know it was about what we could take from in life you know as much as anything else it wasn't yes we wanted to win the cup and I would always say you know success is a is about achieving what you're capable of achieving. So if I'm good enough to win the cup with no problem with talking about that and targeting that and going after that. But there was so much other magic that happened uh around that as well and uh that's the the beauty of sport today it it's it's it's different but uh you know for me I'm I'm uh I'm um I guess an aggregate of all of those experiences and all of the people that I met along the way.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

I love it mate I think it's a fascinating story you'll want it's such a cool story because a a a lot of coaches that don't play professionally really struggle to get that yeah that that jump up you often hear it how do I get that break? How do I move up? But you're like the epitome of it what do you reckon when you said um your lecturist or you had the personality for coaching what do you what do you think you meant by that what do they see in you that just went you've got you've got that thing that something what do you reckon that is um a little bit of an obsessive streak I think would probably be what uh would probably be one side of it.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

I'm I I I I genuinely I don't know Ben I I haven't reflected a huge amount uh on on on that I I I think I I would be a little bit uh kind of yeah just driven and and single minded on on uh on things would would would certainly be one um I'm I'm a really really um uh what's what's the best phrase just uh uh an avid learner I love learning I love seeing um you know how other people do things or or or just getting better uh for me that's the only goal whether it's with the team or whether it's whether it's myself so we're trying to be better tomorrow um you know that that's really the only goal how do we get better and I think because of of of the the journey that that I've had and and because of my background I'm very little fear of I don't want to say fear of failure but like how do I fail? I should have failed 20 years ago. So it it it it's it's kind of like yeah so like it it's like you're just not afraid to try things. That works great let's go that didn't work okay what do we learn from it we move on. Do you think that's a big part for for coaches they need that sort of to have a crack I think there's a big I think there's a big fear of failure yeah I think people are afraid of of looking oh what if what if I look silly or what if uh you know what if that doesn't work or what if that doesn't sit right with the players or uh I I think as well some people can be really constrained by uh their own past experiences particularly if they've had really good coaches um well that's what he did that's what he was really good at and uh you know they try and and replicate that or or imitate that and authenticity is is uh a very overused phrase but uh it is really important uh about trying to be yourself and I'm probably guilty in the past of trying to be like Joe or or trying to be like all other people and and you know it it takes a lot to be comfortable in yourself and and and and be yourself and and uh but I I do think that's that's really important as well.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

What were you taking from Joe?

SPEAKER_01 38:31

What were you trying to copy off on just a brilliant coach just a brilliant coach you know what what what did what did I learn from I was very look at coach Joe's son so I would have spent a lot of time with Joe uh a coach's son with Leinster schools so at that time Joe was coaching Leinster his son Tim was playing for Leinster schools and he would have been very generous with his time and would have regularly met with him and and you know we're still in touch now uh today but Joe is just a brilliant use of language um just really really deliberate around his language uh was really big on on discipline um building good habits um and obviously there's some parallels as well with him he he was he was uh a teacher and and I just uh would have yeah would have would have seen things there and and and um you know experience has taught me that you try and and bring the best from that uh and and from from what I would have learned from him but also with the other experience that I have and and and and not trying to be him if that makes sense. It's trying to un understand what was really good and and and there was loads of really good stuff but understanding as well that you you just can't um you can't copy and paste.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

No. You can't just recurgitate someone else's thoughts you've got to have your own. Yeah correct and and and and so this journey it's been a hell heck of a journey you've gone all over the world with your kids was it a like like you like Ireland to New Zealand to South Africa to France was it a I know you said you almost are an accidental coach but was there a l a degree of d deliberateness in choosing different spots like having a crack at New Zealand styles and African styles was that was that was there a a learning based thing? I want to experience that or were you just rolling with opportunities?

SPEAKER_01 40:27

I wouldn't say it it's it's been deliberate bent to be honest. I think one of the things that I've always been very conscious of is uh there's a a great uh clip from Jamie Carragher who spoke about uh Liverpool had just won the Champions League and someone said to him about coaching he said I'd love to coach I'd love to be a manager but I want to be Jurgen Klapp now. I don't want to be Jurgen Klopp who spent his first couple of seasons struggling at uh at Liverpool I don't want to be Jurgen Klopp who was coaching at Dormont for whatever it was six, seven years. I don't want to be Jurgen Klopp who was at Maines uh struggling and and coaching them for another six or seven years I want to be him now I'm always been very very clear on that it's about building experience uh uh uh and um enjoying it along the way uh and and being as good as you possibly can be along the way because if you're not whatever your plan is it's never going to happen anyway um I I've been very lucky uh I mentioned some of the people I met already but I uh there's one that always stuck with me as well was uh Graham Henry came in to Leinster when Leo took over so Leo took over at Leinster very young head coach Graham Henry came in at the same time to help him over uh over a period of time and I was um an academy coach I think at the time and was just going about coaching the Irish 20s and uh Graham Henry said to me as I've met you're you're 36 years of age at your age I was still a headmaster in a school in New Zealand um just take your time just take your time build your experience um you know as much as you can possibly can um and I just it it really really stuck with me and and uh I was just like and and because my my my path has been different I've always felt it's really important that I'm ready for the next step so what what does that look like? Like if you look at it it's crazy really to go from you know an under 13 team to Bordeaux but you look at the steps in between everything is logical everything is a tiny step it's like you know the Irish Leinster 18s to the Irish under 18s the Leinster under 20s to the Irish under 20s the Irish under twenties to Leinster A the Leinster A to North Harbour North Harbour to to the Sharks everything was was was a a logical a logical step along the way so I I couldn't say that it was a really deliberate plan. What I will say is I've been really clear that it's enjoy the journey because I love doing what I'm doing. I love coaching it's been around um you know try and and and be ready for the next step whatever that step might look like and and then the last part is understanding that my my you know path has been very different. So at times you have to embrace the opportunity at times you know when it came up to go to the sharks it was like you know that's a big step for the family and everything else and and um but equally it was probably an opportunity that we couldn't turn down because you know there were world champions uh the you know the sharks obviously had just come under a new ownership and and uh it was an exciting exciting opportunity but equally I probably needed a family to be committed to it as well and it was a big ask for them.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

How how has it been? Because that that that puts a lot of people off professional coaching is the the perceived strain on family how how's it been for yours?

SPEAKER_01 43:39

You obviously got a very robust resilient sort of crew that can up sticks and leave permission yeah yeah definitely yeah I I think there's two things I I think how has it been I I think you have to enjoy the the the coaching I I I think sometimes that's what uh people lose sight. If you don't love you have to love coaching if you love coaching then you know that that that's the person that's the the the me side so like you're coaching every day you're doing what you love you're doing in a different culture different environment then it it it's awesome you know that that for me it's like people talk about the the Champions Cup uh and and winning the Champions Cup is awesome for 10 minutes in the changing room it's great feeling it's a feeling of relief and then what's next that's not the you know the it's it's really the it it's the reflection afterwards and seeing how how the team has gotten better and the improvement that they've made and the fact that they could do it at that level and all of that that's where the the satisfaction comes but for me the the the the it's it's it's coaching it's being there it's the everyday it's the boring stuff it's the meetings it's the it's the conversations it's the feedback it's the it's the all the little bits and pieces that that go into it is the magic and the other part of it for the family it's trying to ensure that their experience is positive that that the you know that it it is an adventure but that it's fun as well and that's the other part of coaching coaching has to be fun um and and and uh I think that's one of the things that people lose sight of and and they probably think you know I know people would often ask you know well what's it like at at uh at that level it's it's there's so many similarities um between stuff that you would have done at at every level and and fun is one of them it it must be fun it must be enjoyable um but uh yeah that for for for the family it's just ensuring that it's fun that it is a a real adventure we stay connected to home like we we already spoke about uh at the outset and you make time for them as well um you know I think that's pretty important I love it mate I I really I really think that that that's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

Have you made any mistakes in those in those little journeys?

SPEAKER_01 45:52

Any any ones that stand out as key learning from mistakes then in any of that um sorry my uh can you hear me Ben yeah man good as called my my airpods have gone dead there I've made many mistakes I'll make mistakes all the time I'll make mistakes all the time because that's that's ultimately what what it's um what it's about it it's make mistakes. You don't you don't you can't make repeated mistakes exactly the same for players we embrace mistakes there has to be failure there has to be failure in training there are there is a go inevitably going to be failure in in uh in games because the the type of rugby that we play demands that um but for us it it it's about trying to ensure that we don't make repeated ones we don't make the same ones um in in terms of the big mistakes do we have any regrets absolutely not and why because um i think when you make decisions and it's the same in in in in in in in rugby when you make decisions there's reasons why you made those decisions and then you make it a strong decision so there's the whole process that goes into it you make a decision you make it a strong decision you never look back and that's exactly the same whether it being going to New Zealand whether it being you know the reality is I had a very good job in in in a school in Ireland where uh you know as an academic year head I I I um you know had a leadership role within the school I I taught higher level maths uh I learning I remember it doesn't so it doesn't sound like fun doing high level math what sort of it doesn't have fun at all it was it was it was really uh it depends what your sense of fun is I guess but I remember my dad saying to me he's like you're crazy what are you doing like what why are you going to Leinster? You know I took a pretty significant pay cut um but I just really I remember talking to I was year head for third year which was 15 year olds I would tell him all the time about you know make your your profession your obsession and you know work hard at I at chasing something that that you really believe in. And I was like you know I'm giving all this advice and I'm I'm telling uh people what they should do but am I being true to that myself? Am I prepared to to to do something like this and and uh yeah there was probably a little bit of a of a eureka moment there as well.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

What about what about you as a man? Like well are we it's pretty clear that your coaching's gone from strength to strength what about you as a you as Null the man?

SPEAKER_01 48:13

I think yeah as a person you grow you you you you would hope that you're you're on a journey about being a a a better person um and uh I I think you know I think I mentioned already uh about you become an aggregate of of the people you spend the most time with um and uh I've been very very lucky I spent time with special people uh you know whether that be uh at Leinster whether that be in in South Africa whether that be at Bordeaux or whether that be with my family um I'm very very blessed uh you know that to to to experience that people that like being challenged and are prepared to challenge me and and uh I would uh yeah I would I would like to think um and maybe some of the feedback might be different. I'll ask your wife see what she says yeah exactly but like I I think you know that was something we used to ask um i in in school you know one one of the goals uh with a school's rugby team was it was three things really one everyone still wanted to play rugby two you're a better rugby player and three you're a better person and you know the the the winning was a was uh an outcome of of of those three things but I I think you know that's so important and and and that's part probably part of the development uh piece that I would feel really really strong and you see I've gone from there as well I would have spent a large part of my life in development now I'm in kind of performance and and a little bit more uh results based but I I think that metric is lost on so many people like metric number one for uh young young players I'm talking about players 13 14 15 16 do they still want to play the sport at the end of their experience with you and if the answer is no I've no interest in the results if the answer for the players is no then you could have won everything going you could have won every game but you failed and and uh I think that's uh a a really important piece and and it it's also losing sight of um you know a few of the things I was seeing well why does why does Damien Pineau play rugby? Because he loves it. I saw Ruin Pinar when I was at the Sharks he was almost 40 years of age and you know the SNC guys are trying to pull him out and Ruino will manage it today. No no no I want to train I want to train with the youngsters I want to push the youngsters I want to be like the youngsters and that's when you start to understand what uh you know the importance of that side of it is like mate that is a really important one man that is a really important metric if the player doesn't want to keep playing after an experience with you whether it's a season or multiple seasons then that's a fail.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

It doesn't matter what the results on the scoreboard say I couldn't agree with that one more mate because and and why do coaches get lost in that mate what why do you get swept up in scoreboard stuff as opposed to way more important metrics like that especially in the developmental part of that part of that journey coaches at that age yeah I I think there's a human nature side to it as well I I think there's certainly and and and I'd be no I I wouldn't be naive enough to think that it if if if I didn't win games when I was younger that I would have progressed on to the next level as well.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

So it it it's it's it's it is an awful lot of it is coaches link it with progression. I'm coaching the under 14s I want to coach the under 16s how do I get there okay so an awful lot of it is is uh the leadership at the top of the organization and being really really clear about what success looks like and what success looks like with developing developing players and and and young young people

Development, Fun, And Better People

SPEAKER_01 51:40

um because you know the reality is that I was a big 13 year old so I was good at sport at 13. I probably didn't develop some of the skill sets that were requisite to be successful maybe as time went on but you know when you're big when you're strong whatever the sport is you score goals you score tries and and maybe the team wins as a consequence of that that doesn't mean everybody's getting better that doesn't mean everybody's enjoying it that doesn't mean everybody's developing and um I think the leadership is really really important and uh I I think as well you know for for the the coaches if if they're clear on on that that that success metric um it it helps it it it it helps i if if it's not linked uh to their progression as a coach um and then some of it is is awareness of self i i it's it's uh you know being yeah emotionally intelligent I suppose yeah yeah it is really fascinating that definition of success around how it differs for everybody and your context and and the people you're coaching that there's not a one size fits all with success is there and every agent stage is a different the same with life too like different stages of your own life outside of your profession there's different measurements of success too right yeah absolutely there's there's no question about it I I think I I mentioned one already and i it's stolen from John Wooden uh it's it's success is is is achieving what you're capable of achieving and you know we had some brilliant teams at school that that should win and and and that was our that was our goal that was our objective you know the the pursuit of excellence uh for young people is really important however it cannot define you and and I think that's where we probably got it right at i in in in Congos it it wasn't our defining factor and it wasn't our ultimate measure of success that's never to say that we didn't have the goal of winning that's never to say that we were afraid of it even with the Irish twenties you know the Irish twenties we we talked about learning to win so that the goal was to learn how to win but part of that was losing and understanding how to lose and and understanding how to review it how to understand what we had done well how to understand that you know if you lose everything wasn't catastrophic just like if you win everything isn't perfect um and and I think uh you know a lot of those for me were and that's uh that's the lucky part I have I guess if you've all of those experiences from you know I talked about already being ready what is being ready well being ready was you know arriving in in Bordeaux in um in 2023 with 18 years of experience of coaching at a variety of different levels and and uh everything that went into that all the failure all the other bits and pieces and and uh you know just uh I guess right place right time with the right people I love that mate learning how to win is also learning how to lose doing being good around that you actually talked off air earlier and I'm gonna get this word wrong you you said you are a is it a parasympathetic learner is it am I have I said that right no parasitic like a parasite oh parasitic in in it's a weird context so when when someone listening hears that that Noel McMahon says he's a uh parason uh parasitic learner hit us with very good at learning from other people I suppose is uh is what I would say even when uh when I was in college I I would I would sit down with a group and we'd be doing maths and and I would be probably the worst mathematician of the five people sitting down but by the end of the hour or whatever it was I would have learned from everybody so I would have picked up uh a little bit from everybody within uh within that group so I just I I I think I mentioned already I I love learning and and and I I see opportunities to learn everywhere I you know I've spoken in the past about l learning from uh from uh my kids and and everything else so I I remember our first trip with uh with the sharks we went uh we went to Europe and and I come uh come back here and um oh you we you know the kids are much younger at the time and they said oh how did you get on Daddy and I said oh you know we didn't win any games so oh you're not very good are you I was like uh yeah maybe we're not that good yeah he said you better get better I was like yep you're right we better get better and I remember going back to to the sharks and I had a clip of a uh a a coach called Brian Cody who was a a brilliant uh hurling coach and he spoke about it he said you know one of the biggest realizations we had was understanding that we weren't good enough it was it wasn't a rubber the green it wasn't a referee it wasn't the weather it wasn't this it wasn't that we were not good enough and now what are we going to do about it and I think that's just a brilliant uh and and you know it came from worse than you better get better um and uh I then came across that clip and and uh yeah the irony of of of players in South Africa uh watching a clip from uh an amateur coach in Ireland but you know it it it's just a great message there are some times when you just have to accept we weren't good enough and I think sometimes we look for far too many excuses and oh it was this it was that and I mentioned before the mirror uh the mirror versus the window we look through the window we look at other things we look for other reasons the bottom line is right now at this moment in time we're not good enough yet okay what are we gonna do about it and then you get busy getting better it's a powerful word attack on the end isn't it like get it just it just it's that hope doesn't as a coach you can say that stuff and then the moment you slap yet on the end just that reframes it in such an exciting um attacking sort of way which is good coming from you one of the best attack coaches around yet we're not ready yet we're not good enough yet we're not fast enough yet we're not strong enough yet and you then you actually gets me kind of excited you go yeah yeah right it's it's honest it's brutal but it's full of hope as well which is part of good coaching too isn't it creating that narrative around that 100% i i it it's the two sides of it well the first side is a stab in the belly mindset so it's to fit that feedback and then uh the the second uh side of it is taking control um you're taking control and you're taking control of of of what comes next and we would talk a lot about um you know it also highlights for you the importance of what we mentioned with Joe already the importance of language the importance of of of uh of the ability to to to use language well but we talk a lot about what we can control and what we don't control what we can influence and uh you know so what what you can influence what you control and what you can't control so you can control the past um you know you you you can't control uh the weather you can't control uh you know the the the environment or the physical environment potentially but you can control yourself you can control the present you can control your efforts and you can influence the future and I think it's really important where you um where where you you drive your attention you d you know you talk about uh your intention drives your attention but your attention is finite and and it's really important that it's on the right things oh mate wow gee there's some powerful stuff in there my friend actually just just on Joe Schmidt it's funny he's actually very similar to you in a lot of ways an English teacher and he uh he was talking to me the other day and he talked about things like the language which you talked about and he called it make it sticky make your language sticky you've probably heard him say that and he referred to things like use alliteration like um um body ball instead of like instead of fall on your stomach and then place the ball long he would just do body ball meaning fall on your body then put the ball back and the repeating nature of that letter and the repeating like uh balls bounce bravely before you know that kind of thing creates a a stickiness and he also said things like rhyme using rhyme to um help reinforce the language in people's heads and I I just think it's it's cool mate and whilst you're not English teacher you're a maths teacher by trade I I love the way that you referred back to some of that stuff you learned in mass how you enjoyed that it didn't matter if you got the the outcome was right there was a whole process underneath which you could work through and even if the outcome wasn't right you could get all these ticks along the way and I think it's the more I'm hearing of the best coaches in the world yourself being one of them this teaching background offers so much like direct correlation to good coaching and it's no surprise that like yourself Joe Schmidt Graham Henry's all teachers and I'm I'm sure there's a loads more yeah I I I think there there's different things. I think if if you talk about coaching it has different cups to fill so like you know I think the the the best uh coaches will be really good and rugby they will be good with people and they will understand the pedagogy or the teaching of coaching and some people have more than than of one than the other for me the the the game and and rugby was a big learning part um getting better with people and and the teaching was something that came you know relatively naturally to me. I think you love other people and and you know I've I've I've experienced working with with you know someone like Paul O'Connell who was brilliant with with the rugby and the people and and was working really hard around the coaching or I met Tano Maga when he was a coach of the blues when I was with North Harbour and he he was on a similar journey around trying to work hard at that. So I I think it it's it's very challenging for somebody to have all of them um for me maybe I had the the most unusual one not to have um but you know it it's it's definitely it's definitely an advantage and and I think for me that would have been one of my biggest learnings from Joe you talk about men mention mentioned uh that already I think as well it it it helps um Ben feedback is is I've mentioned feedback a lot feedback is really important the best feedback instant plus plus plus plus plus a plus plus plus plus plus feedback is instant it's now boom it's it's it's uh and and to do that you need sticky language you need sticky coaching cues you need something that makes sense to the players so that I think that's where we're where you know what what Joe's talking about is really really good um because it's not to me it it's weak coaching if you say to a player I'm a we'll we'll look at the video when we go back inside well I mean that means you know you need six views to decide what has just happened and and you're not really sure it's poor coaching. If you say to Meta let's let's talk about that on Monday that's even worse. So like I would say instant the moment it's done it's like uh my daughter uh we have a a barbecue and and uh she was two and I said don't touch the barbecue it's hot don't touch the barbecue at all no that's us she touched it she never touched it again instant feedback boom best possible learning and and I think that that's where um uh technology can can be uh a negative as well where it's like uh you know you've got two drones you've got two IP cameras you've got a a GoPro you've got this you've got the best feedback is boom and and and equally it's the same with players it's players that give feedback to each other how open to that are we oh he he used mean words mate it's it's it's a gift you've got to be able to process it you've got to be able to take that on board and and uh that's I I think that's when you've got really good environments when the feedback's happening on the pitch the learning is happening on the pitch it's not reliant on 60 60 minute uh uh you know reviews afterwards whilst the reviews are important I would categorize it in terms of time so A plus is instant uh let's say one hour might be at a B level the following day might be at a C level two days later we're already down to pass grid.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

I love that sort of ranking mate that's really important yeah it just highlights how how massively important that is now Noel we've got to that time mate mate it's actually flown by I love it how quickly it goes man when you're just engrossed in such awesome conversation mate I love to keep going but I I do like to keep it to a a nice commutable length for those that are on the tube through London half an hour each way this is the last question we ask mate um and it's this um what's one belief you have about coaching or culture that you believe in that you believe that most of your contemporaries or peers would actually disagree with um yeah I think it's it's very difficult to to to to know what other people will think and I'm not I'm not sure I'm gonna I'm gonna speculate too much on on uh on on what other people would would believe in I I'm not sure that everyone would agree around the feedback that we spoke about uh before and the importance of receiving feedback.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

I'm not sure that everyone would agree around the fun um and and the importance of of fun but I I would be pretty clear on on both of those things. I think it's really important that that um that it it's it's enjoyable and I think it's really important that the feedback is uh is uh reciprocative so it it it goes both ways and and I think you know the environment needs to be fun while it's never been funny.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

So it should never be uh yeah mate I love that it should be fun without ever being funny it can't be a joke it can be a joke I absolutely love it mate hey well what an absolute pleasure Noel to have you um from home from the farm in in uh Ireland with 25 what cat cattle running around very in the sunshine which is rare it's it's good exactly yeah it's uh it's beautiful uh I actually did this outside I think it's the first time I've ever done uh one of these things outside in Ireland first is what well mate I would like to sum up if I may mate just my my three key takeaways that I took out of this plus a nice little a finisher mate which I really love that you said and and they are these number one you said good coaches and good players work it out together and I just love that statement mate I think it's awesome trust players to solve problems and you talked about some of your New Zealand learnings around what you learn as a coach and your player interactions was this simplify your communication coach principles not endless detail trust players to solve the problems and spend less time talking and more time creating learning environments and I just think that's absolutely gold. Number two is feedback is a gift and you really made big mention that you've got to be open to feedback. Coaches can't not

Instant Feedback And Closing Takeaways

SPEAKER_00 1:06:15

give feedback it can't be one way it's got to be both and it's got to be instant or as close as you can to get it to have real impact. And I think that's often something a lot of coaches divert to later and think it's still fine. The sooner it is the better it is. Number three on your advice to coaches aspiring to come through the ranks like you did one of my most favorite statements you said was that you had very little fear of failure. And you mentioned that it's often constrained by previous experiences especially if you had good coaches in the past that sometimes can hold you back. You advised to be your authentic self to be yourself to back yourself to chase something you truly believe in and one of my favourite quotes about this was be a parasitic learner learn off everybody. Love that mate and I just think it's it's absolute gold and you're an absolute testament to that. The last piece was have fun and have an adventure if I may I'd like to also add this lovely little bonus thing that I am gonna take in myself from your time in South Africa you said you must put your feet on the land your ancestors walked every six months to reconnect and to reground yourself. And I think that's a beautiful thing to coaches to keep in mind. In fact anybody anywhere doing anything it's a wonderful little habit to get into and just give yourself a little bit of time back to yourself whatever you're doing in life. Noel McMuire what a pleasure it is to have you here on the Coaching Culture podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:52

Thanks very much Ben Yeah great great chatting really appreciate it