Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Pressure Made Me Forget Who I Was | Joey Mongalo
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Pressure doesn’t usually change a coach with one big blow. It changes you slowly, one compromise at a time, until the season ends and you realize you’ve been walking around in fog. Joey Mongalo joins us for a contrarian round of questions on coaching culture and leadership, starting with a deceptively simple one: are holidays just as important as seasons? From tornado-speed weekly cycles to the need for pockets of quiet, we talk rest and recovery as a performance skill, not a reward you earn after you’re already depleted.
From there we get into player development and the uncomfortable truth about control. Coaches can create dependency by owning every decision, every clip, every answer. The alternative is autonomy: shared review and preview, players building their own “program away from the program,” and an “individual first” mindset that actually serves the team. If you only do the generic team session, you might get away with it in a team sport, but you’ll get exposed when the moment is yours.
We also unpack why winning teams stop winning, looking at evolution at the organizational level, leadership transitions and the baton pass, and what happens when selection becomes a given. Then we take on modern leadership myths: can nice leaders win, should leaders show weakness, and what vulnerability looks like when AI can provide endless information but can’t provide trust, psychological safety, or real human connection.
If you care about high performance coaching, authentic leadership, accountability, and building a resilient team culture, this conversation will give you language and practical angles you can use right away. Subscribe, share this with a coach or leader who needs a reset, and leave a review with the biggest idea you’re taking into your week.
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Contrarian Coaching And Big Questions
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Coaching Culture, a podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been hearing I've been loving this part of the game for bloody ages. Today we are joined again, once again, by Joey Mongalo, the man, the legend that is. Always come back inspired from conversations with Joey. He's over in South Africa as he always is. He's just come back from a little time off and he's feeling fresh. And we're doing something different today with Joey because of the way he thinks, the way he leads, and he speaks beautifully and offers some awesome insights and interesting takes on things that sometimes we take for granted. So today we are doing a contrarian coaching culture podcast. And I'll for those of you who don't know what that word means, it means basically anything to the contrary of a popular belief. So a contrarian belief is not the normal belief or the normal way of thinking. Slightly offset. I'd like to ask Joey a few questions and see how he rolls. Put him on the spot. See the pressure, how he deals with it. So let's roll it. He's a popular, popular man on this podcast. Every time he comes on here, he lights it up. And I remember the last time you came on, mate, your wife said, Well, if you've been asked back for a second show, you must have done something wrong in the first one. But that is definitely not the case, my friend.
SPEAKER_01How are you? Good, mate. Um, it's always a joy to be on here with you. Um, you've already outdone yourself because you've taught me a new word, contrarian. I'm definitely going to find the right context to use that word somewhere along the line. And I'll also affirm to my wife that I've been invited for a third time. So something must be seriously wrong the first two times, uh, or we did something right, uh Benjamin. So I'm looking forward to this one. Love it, mate.
SPEAKER_00So here's the first question, mate. It's very topical for you. Are holidays as important as seasons from a coaching context?
SPEAKER_01Ben, um, great question. And I have just come from a holiday. The season right now with URC and Champions Cup or Challenge Cup runs roughly, it's almost like nine months of the year. Um, and I've just come from a four-week break um from our postseason, and we missed out on a playoff. And uh it was a tough season. Let's put it that way, with the sharks was a tough season. And the man that I were, the man that I was before the break, and the man that I am after the break is two completely different men. Um, and how I fought to try to articulate it is I felt like towards the back end of the season, I was a guy walking through the fog, um, a foggy mind, um, foggy, daily going into work, and it felt foggy. Um, I know I kept using the word foggy because I got to find a different word, but it didn't feel clear. It was the opposite of clear. Um, and after these four weeks of just going back, sitting down, reflecting on who I was in the season, in the good times, in the challenging times, reflecting on how I dealt with losses and wins, me personally, but also the group, um, reflecting on meetings, meeting structure, all of that, um, I got to a point of clarity. It feels like I found myself again. So the fact that it feels like I found myself insinuates that somewhere along the season I might have lost myself slightly, especially because it was a challenging season. So if you say, are they as important, or I think the season is important, yes, for the value of competition
Holidays, Fog, And Finding Yourself
SPEAKER_01and pressure and dealing with that and overcoming and seeing a plan come together after a week's plan and it executed. But I reckon for a coach, getting away from the game is just as important. Um, just to find clarity, man.
SPEAKER_00I completely agree. When you were talking there, man, I was thinking of this analogy, it's like when the season's on, you're inside the tornado, aren't you? Like it's swirling shit going on everywhere. And the more acclimatized you come to that, you start to think that's your normal, right? Like all the swirl, this stuff coming at you. And unless you actively step outside the tornado and you realize, oh, this calm, this quiet, this peacefulness is actually the normal, not what I was in. You don't even realize you're in it.
SPEAKER_01100%. Um, and you've said it, you've lived it, right? It's a it's a rolling, it's a roller coaster. And I like how you said it's the um it's a storm. Um, and you know you get the eye of the storm, but we don't often visit the eye of the storm because what's happening is you play a game. Sunday, I try to take some day off, but Sunday evening you start to review. Monday, it's a review, preview. Tuesday, you're into attack. Wednesday, you have an off day, but in your off day, you're busy planning for the next week's game to get that review sorted, preview sorted. Thursday, it's defense day, you're in, you're doing your thing. Friday's a captain's half day, but in that captain's as a coaching group, you're starting to preview the next section. Then game day, Saturday. Yes, you might spend the morning with your family if you're able to separate, but then it's match day and then it's super highs and super lows. So it just keeps going. Um, it gets ahead of you, Ben. So the ability to climb into the eye of the storm during the storm, I think is a coaching ability that I know I need to get better at. I can't wait for a nine-month-long season to have these four weeks of clarity. I've got to find a way in my weeks to create pockets that allow me to say, okay, Joey, are you still Joey Mungalu? Are you still coaching the way that you want to coach? Are you still connecting with people? Are you still the relational coach that you want to be? Or has the pressure of winning on the Saturday gradually taken you away from who you want to be ultimately?
SPEAKER_00Ooh, finding pockets, mate. Finding my little micro moments of quiet and stillness to calm the raging storm that's going on in your mind, which you don't even realize is wrecking the the sowed seeds in your cerebellum. It's mucking it all up. It's like a high-energy aerobic session which is never stopping. And sometimes you need to just pause the music for a moment, change your socks, and then get back in the sowing.
SPEAKER_01What did you say? Sowing seeds in the cerebellum. You are it's alliteration or something. Well done, Benjamin. Um, but but where it's super clear, it's I think it was Dave Nsafor was in the program with you who spoke about not losing your North Star. Um, and that episode really challenged me. And what I was thinking about in this time, being this postseason, was that losing a North Star, I think, very rarely happens in a moment. I think it gradually happens over time. Scientifically, they they they've proven before that you can boil a frog in water by increasing the temperature one percent at a time until it actually goes to boiling temperature and the frog dies. Don't try to do it. I'm a I'm a person for pets and my kids won't enjoy me much if I actually do it, but it has been proven. You can look at it. And I was thinking about that in a concept.
SPEAKER_00And so Joey, the frog, the frog doesn't realize it's getting to boiling level because the it's incremental. And by the time, well, it just ends up dying, not because of it's sore or anything. It's used to the heat, it's just the body can't take it anymore.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. 100%. So if you can take that analogy and try um juxtapose it or put it against a nine-month-long season, is over time with pressure, I can easily, I'm speaking about I myself as Joey, I can easily lose myself slightly over time because I it might be one meeting or one compromise on a core principle that I believe in. Or, and then over time, those things in my head now I've got an analogy almost of a a small, a small circle of a um snow. And then it's just starts getting that snowball effect and it grows and it grows and it grows. And before you know it, it's grown so big, it's built up so much momentum that it's hard to stop and hard to change and give it a different direction. So I think that's what end season can feel like. So post-season was that snow melting, becoming water again, seeing clarity and saying, okay, my guy, um, how did you lose yourself in the midst of that? Right. So where did you what did you lose? How did you lose it? And I think more importantly, is it'll be sad if I sat here a year from now and it had happened again, um, that I had not found wise ways to break away into those pockets of peace, of tranquility, of going back and saying, okay, if you're a coach who says you are detailed, you are relational, are you still that person? Or when the pressure came, did you become more detailed and less relational? Um, and pressure does that, right? It it really asks us the questions, are you still the man that you said you're gonna be? I think pressure does that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that little phrase you talked about when the snow melts, and when snow melts, you get to actually see what's underneath, what the foundation you're walking on. Have you forgotten what that looks like or not? Interesting when you talk about those little small little things that you just like um take a you know that build on each other. And I remember hearing about like uh the the Nazi syndrome where it was a whole lot of small yeses for the general public where they said, Okay, yes, yes, okay, that that's what those people do, and yes, and yes, and yes, until they get to the point where like putting people in concentration camps isn't is is just another small yes, and it's just okay, okay. And it can happen to anybody, like like Frog. We get deep and it's go for it. No, I'm just saying we get deep pretty quick here, mate. We start talking about all sorts of stuff, which um no, that that's really good.
SPEAKER_01Um, I remember um Vincent Suchuka, the current number seven, or he's in the Springbok mix at the moment, but he usually plays one of the loose forwards for us. I coached him when he was a baby, he was a youngster, 19-year-old, fledging 19-year-old. And before somewhere in the towards the end of last season, he said to me, Listen, there's a certain characteristic that you coached us with as 19-year-olds. And he sort of, because he's kind, he sort of kind of said, I don't see that in you anymore. And that is something that I held so closely to the way that I coached. And I went home and he doesn't even know. But it cut me so deep to say that I had meandered so far, gradually, slowly, around one of the core ways I want to be as a coach. And he brought that up. And I thought to myself, man, wow, how did you lose that part? You know, like you're saying, the the small yeses like the Nazi things. Almost like, how did you get to the point of thinking it's okay to put people in an in a concentration camp? But it's because of all these small yeses that were happening that I'm like, my goodness, I don't even recognize myself anymore. So it's humbling in the moment, you don't want to hear it, but hearing it is almost like, okay, it is true, I have gotten there. Um, how do we get back and how do we make sure that we never land in the same spot again?
SPEAKER_00Do you think there's a degree also though, to contrary to that, is that you need to evolve as well as a coach and to not necessarily have some of those values you have at the start, midway through, and then towards the end of your journey? Do you think that's something to reflect on as well? That you don't want to necessarily have those same things, you need to be evolving.
SPEAKER_01I think that's true. And I think more specific is he, when I coached him as a youngster, I really came hard at him and at the players because you, this coach and they're youngsters, and you almost go hard at them and they respond to that, they start winning. It's just a self-fulfilling prophecy. Where now it's to figure out when you've got eight, nine, ten springboks in front of you and you're trying to get the best out of them. Um, having a go shouting and screaming might not be the way. Um, so so yes, can you be equal but not the same? So, can you be equal in what you're trying to get out of people, equal in the way you treat a 135-cap Springbok and a 10-cap sharks player, but not the same. Um, so I think you are right. It's it's how does one hold on to a core value or a coaching philosophy, but it looks different based on the environment that you're in. So it looks different to the Lions under 19s than what it looks to a Springbok laden sharks outfit in 2026, uh 15 years later. So I think so. I think without losing the core principles, maybe the application of how the application is slightly different based on context and time and evolution.
SPEAKER_00I think it's I think it's probably the same as like uh your own children, right? Like you definitely um have slightly different values and the way you treat your kids when they're younger, because there's necessity. You have to be a bit more direct around don't touch the fire. And when they're teenagers, you're like, Well, if you want to touch the fire, go for your life. And I will be laughing at you as I have a nice glass of gin and watching you squirm around on the floor. I I find that quite funny. Bet you in fact, sometimes I say to my teenage son, I bet you can't. Which I never would have said to him when he was two. But that's the context. I've evolved with time. Um, but it is important to make that equal equal, but not the same. And I think that's a lovely statement in itself for coaches as well. Like treating people equally, but the measurement of that equal is very different. You talked about the senior um player versus the junior player, you'll treat them equally for their status and and appropriately, like the two-year-old versus teenage son. You you'll treat them with the same love and care, but there's a contextual difference there around the way you approach that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so good. And I think the way I've tried to understand it for myself, Ben, is that the equal means the standard is a standard. We're not gonna drop the bar because you've got 130 caps on you, and the guy with five caps, we're gonna keep the bar high for him. The equal means the standard is the standard. Um, the the not the same part is about okay, um, what is the repercussion or the consequence look like for the guy who's played five provincial caps than what it looks like for the guy who's got 135 international caps. So everybody looking into the room will say, Well, you never compromised on your standard, but your application of consequence was different. So, what it should feel like to everyone observing this, there's a fairness about this, there's an equality about this, but the way we've gone about applying it has been slightly different. Um, because you can imagine if you get either side wrong, it's not helpful, right? So if you don't get the standard and you compromise on standard, then people look at you and say, hey, that's a bit hypocritical. But also, if you get it wrong on the application of the consequence, you could also destroy something, right? So um, yeah, I think finding the the right balance of how you deal with the standard as well as the application of consequence is quite important.
SPEAKER_00I love that, man. I actually love that consistent standard. Like if there's a line and you're saying this is our standard, that's our standard, but you've obviously got the players that are coming up trying to hit that standard. So they're striving to just get to the standard in the first place, and then you've got those senior players who you're not looking at are they getting the standard? You're making sure they don't drop down to the standard, so that's the bar, they're not going lower than. And so you're you're sort of critiquing them on are they just switching off, are they cruising and going back down to the standard? Because we want them well above it. And those guys coming up, we're not critiquing them for not reaching it because they're they're trying their best, because they're trying to get up there. It's a very different context, I reckon.
SPEAKER_01And and I'd almost like you use that fancy word for contrary to popular thinking. Um, I would almost say, even on what your thing is, is I would say the bar is the bar and it's high, um, and that there shouldn't be anybody living underneath it or anybody above it. So, yes, we're trying to get there. So I would say for the senior and the group is that they're matching the bar, but using all the extra capacity to be lifting the juniors and showing them how to do it. This is how you go about it. So the the capacity that I've got, if if yes, if it's about getting out into the field early, yes, I'm out on the field early, so I've reached the bar, but I've got capacity to say, hey, come with me seven minutes earlier, and we're gonna do a bit of a work con before training because I'm an older guy. So my capacity allows me to get somebody else to get closer to the bar. So if I'm a locker five lock and the younger five lock is struggling to catch a high ball, it's okay, let's get to the field earlier, but hey, let's spend these next five minutes catching this high ball and throwing the ball to each other because I know there's a bar to be reached, and I want to help you reach that bar um so that we're all on the same page because the bar's not going to change whether you've got a hundred caps or five caps.
SPEAKER_00That's right. It's almost like the weightlifting analogy with if you if you can lift a weight, you lift a weight, that the bar, but if you can't, someone's got to help you spot it, help you spot it and help you lift it up to actually so you do get it up. And the senior guys have I don't think can be resting on their laurels of just doing the weight that they know they can do, they've got to go slower, get their tempo, or put more weight on. So the bar for them is raising. Yeah, love it, mate. Now, here's a contrarian question number two, Joey. Do coaches create dependency in their players? Good question.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna try to go one back and say coaching is super tough, Ben, um, as you'll know, because you you've got a degree of control in the week of how the week goes, but once that whistle goes, your degree of control pretty much diminishes, if not goes to zero. Um, so the temptation logically in my head is the more I can control leading up to that state, the more I can give over. I think that's logical. It's like if I'm a teacher, the more I can help this kid prepare for this exam, the more I feel like when they're gonna write that exam, it's gonna be as close to the outcome that we work towards as possible. Um, so if you take that in a coaching context, is the temptation, I'm talking about me. I'm not talking about like as if I'm any better. I'm speaking to me. My temptation is to control as much as I can in the week and then hope that it happens on the weekend, it gets translated. But it's actually the opposite is the more the player can be part of the process, which clips are we going to show this week? Um, what are we reviewing? What are we previewing? Um, what do you see as critical to our preparation this week? I feel like the more um, what's the word? The more autonomy and shared ownership a player can get in the process, the more they are able to execute on the weekend something that we've collectively decided is what we need to get over the line. Um, so when you answer your question, when you ask the question about dependency, I think yes. I think it's easy to want to control the situation so much that you become a player becomes dependent on you. Um but I think there is a way as well where it says, let us rather journey together. Let us make this thing our review, our preview process, and that becomes our performance together. Um, yeah, I think dependence is a is a is a is a tough one because it also depends on the player, right? So if you've got a younger player in the group, most of the younger players don't really know what their program outside of the program looks like. So, yes, we've got a program, unit skills, gym skills, whatever, but there's a whole other program that the best players run outside of the program. So a guy like that probably needs to be taught this is how you do extras, this is how your week works. On a Monday, your body's sore. So you're probably gonna do the work ons that don't require physical contact. On a Tuesday, it's more attacking focus. So maybe you want to work on your catch and your passing on your breakdown. On a Thursday is two, 48 hours away from match day. So maybe you want to get clanking on the physical stuff on tackle. So I think once we've taught guys what their program away from the program looks, I think then dependency
Autonomy Over Player Dependency
SPEAKER_01can be put away, right? Is to say this guy knows now how to be a full professional, what his week looks like, and he's learning early what exactly do I need to be the best version of myself come Saturday. So I feel like if the if the work is done in that space then of equipping guys to run the best possible individual and collective week, I think the easier it is to let go and let players do this whole thing. So they're not dependent on Joey or another coach, but they're dependent on if I hit my process Monday to Friday, Saturday's likely to go the way I need it to go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I always like like kind of like the analogy too, like you like the kind of dependency as a fisherman catching a fish versus showing you how to fish. And like that, you know, that old saying where like feed for a day versus fade uh get fed for a year by being or a lifetime if you know how to fish. But but but where somewhere with this concept for me around like certainly I've I can see dependency in players quite easily. There's certain characteristics of players that just want to be told what to do at training, and I have this little chip on my shoulder sometimes when players that are aspiring just turn up to training and do whatever the coach says, and that's all they do. It's like I'm going to training, I do what the coach says, um, and that'll be fantastic. Whereas I feel like that is for an aspiring player a recipe for mediocrity because a coach planning a session for a team is doing it generically good for everybody. They need the whole session to go well, so it's gonna be good for the bulk of people at about 80% of time. Whereas if you're an aspiring player, not to be dependent on what the coach says, to actually go, I'm that's a generic one for the team, and I know I'm gonna do that because I want to be a part of the team, all that, but I need to do think about for myself, know what I need to do to excel, to be that little bit better. What little bits do I need to do? Am I am I running the right lines? Am I fit enough? All the stuff that only you can answer. Like cause a because a coach can't give you a hundred percent of everything you need to know. You need to have that individual thing to to know what you need and what you desire, what motivates you. A coach doesn't always know those things. And so I I think there's a when when players just turn up and are dependent on whatever the coach says, I think it's a miss. And I think we need to almost detrain that sometimes in our players. And in little ways which I've enjoyed seeing people do it, is things like um you hit someone at the start of training, you got the warm-up today, or you run the warm-up for five minutes to someone, or you're doing the cooldown, or whatever it is, you're doing the G Up song, and then they're having to think and be like full of themselves and not just be dependent on the coach, spoon feeding everything. So I think we do as coaches.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, man, and I think you're onto something big, Ben. Um, like if you think about work ons, um, normally the hookers throw, the guys who kick for goal, those ones are the ones who naturally do work ons because if you Think about it. If you stop a rugby game at a line out, the hooker, everyone who's watching rugby, is watching to see if you're gonna throw the ball in straight. So he's got this responsibility that flip, the game is gonna pause, everyone's watching me, I've got to get that ball thrown in straight. The kicker for goal, the game stops. Everyone's watching you, you've got to kick this thing over, or you've got to kick it to touch, right? So in those moments, those athletes are actually individual athletes. It's the equivalent of a cricketer. When you're bowling, it's only you running out and you bowling that ball, you've got to hit the mark. If you're batting, it's only you against the bowler. So you're batting and you've got your deficiency, you know, your strengths and your weaknesses. This is a long way of going around this, Ben. I think the next level rugby coaching is where each individual sees himself like a golfer or a cricketer and says, yes, there is a team sport to be played, but can I judge myself around what I need to do to get the performance out of me? So if you're a cricketer and you know you struggle with a short ball and you're playing a test match at the wacker with a bouncy wicket, you if the the whole batting team might have a net and all hits on the cover drive. At some point, you've got to think, I'm gonna be facing and it's only gonna beat me. It's on a bouncy wicket and I've got a problem with a short ball. So I can't say to the coach, coach, what do you think we should do about this? I've got to go and say, I've got to say, Ben, listen here, bro. We're playing at the whacker. Everyone knows that the short wall is a weakness for me. So what you know what we're gonna do this week? We're gonna bob and weave and we're gonna let them hit me, but I'm not gonna pull out one pull shot. That's the guy recognizing I'm gonna be exposed if I don't get this right. So suddenly dependency is like, stuff the coach, he's fine. I'm gonna be the one who's exposed in front of a whacker of 20, 30,000 people. So my thought is can we get rugby players seeing their skill set, your catch pass, your carry clean with the same lens that a golfer sees? If you've got a putting problem as a golfer, man, you can go hit on the on the long driving range as much as you can. You can hit your drives, you can hit your chip shots as much as you can. But if you don't spend time saying, I need to become a better putter, you're gonna get exposed. And I think a lot of rugby and collective sport, it's easy to rock up and just do the team program and not have your program outside of the program because you'll get away with it to a certain degree. You see, you can get away with it in a team sport.
SPEAKER_00This is almost this is another point to add on to this, mate, is you're almost that most teams have this team first mentality, which is preached quite highly, team first, team first, where we really for an individual, you should be thinking individual first. The the team first context is always going to be there because it's a team sport. But individually first, you need to get your stuff as outstanding as you can get it, and that will lead to a team being better. But if you're just putting team first and just doing, as we've talked about, just the session, and you're not doing this extra stuff to nail your clean outs on the breakdown that you have to do as the open side flanker, which is generally the first one, then you're hiding with the team first mentality. You say, Oh, that it'll fall under this collective banner of the team. Whereas to be really good, and what coaches need to drive and players is get your individual stuff right off the bat. Come to training, knowing the elements you need to work on, not just the skill set stuff of those that are going to be exposed, like hookers and goal kickers, but clean outs for everybody. And you should take pride of them. If you're the number seven in that first clean out is yours wherever it is, you should be setting up drills to get that clean out wherever it goes super good and put all sorts of obstacles in the way and nail it. And I think there's something really important about that. Often when you talk about individual first, it gets treated with this, oh yeah, selfish, all these kind of statements. Whereas I disagree a lot of the time, if you're working super hard to be the best that you are, you are in essence working for the team.
SPEAKER_01Uh I I couldn't agree more, man. Um, and I would say this is the the collective expression of how the team plays, you are required to be in a certain spot. So be that spot. That's where you're the team man. But going over and above is when you're there and you're going to carry, for example, the the quality that you've put on extra legwork on a fan, on scoring two plays. That detail for me says a lot about the team man that you are. Yes, I'm working individually to make Joey better. But the better tackler that Joey is to his left-hand side because he's identified, he's got deficiencies there, well, the better it is for the system because I'm making quality tackles. I'm able to get a uh double effort counter rack on the thing. That makes the team better. But I was able to do the work to go internally. And I think maybe, Ben, that's where the thing might be. It's, you know, feedback is hard to get. Um, not there yet is a hard thing. So it might start with, let me first go back and look at my entire game and say, man, I'm actually lacking in this part and that part. So what am I gonna do about it? What does my program away from the program look like? Um, to take it a step closer, I am nowhere near the coach I want to be then when I'm the finished product. So I've got to look at my own program. And so, Joey, the way you review, preview, one-on-ones, how are you going? Um, and if I can identify, you know what, actually, I struggle with a review because it can be quite emotional, but I'm very good at a preview because it's about opposition and I can bring some emotional edge to it. Well, I've got to go look back and say, well, how do I do that better? Who does it well in the coaching group? Because when I am a better reviewer, the team gets a better message out and we become better. Um, so I think it's probably starts with doing deep work internally. Who are you? What are you really good at that you want to keep policy? But what are the things where you're not there yet? And are you willing to be aware of them and do something about them? For the greater good of Joey, yes, but ultimately for the greater good uh good of the team. Yeah, I love them, man. And it's humbling, Ben. Sorry, it's humbling. It's humbling to figure out that you're not perfect. It's humbling. So the options are when you see that is to either walk away and hope it goes away or to face it and say, listen, let's do something about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it's probably worthwhile too, that everyone's got their strengths and weaknesses. Like, there's some stuff I just absolutely hate and I'm terrible on, and like people try and make me do it, and I go, I'm not doing that. Like, just get out of my face, I won't be doing that. But then there's other stuff where I want to be world class at it. And one one example of that is from my playing days, I always get when coaches used to say, get into the breakdown and slow the ruck down, or and if you can win a penalty, and I would always take deep resentment to that because I'm like, slow the ruck down. I'm not going in there to slow the ruck down, I'm going in there to get the ball, and I'm not going in there to get a penalty, I'm going to get the ball. Like, I'm not practicing to slow this thing down. That's a half-pire job. But I think also as coaches, like when when I thought back for me as a coach teaching that breakdown stuff, I had to go back to that and go, I'm not teaching people to just slow it down because that's that that's that that's a sort of a team concept. Individually, when you go in there, we're not trying to milk a penalty. Get the ball, be s like go so aggressively that you're actually winning the ball, like and and as a as a second disappointing um byproduct, you're winning the penalty. That's what you should be thinking. Oh, damn it, I got penalized. I should have got the ball. We would have had a quick ball and we would have scored. But I think for me, uh I've really improved uh proved over time about really decisive around some of that language stuff for the individual. If you're in there for the ruck analogy, win the ball, don't just do this other thing. Okay, next question, Joey. Are we gonna or or we get too passionate about talking about jackaling breakdowns, which is well gone, mate? My knees would not enjoy that these days. Roder, mate. Here's the next one. Why do you think winning teams stop winning?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, good. It's really good. I think it's uh it's an answer that probably can be answered at different levels. I think there's something organizationally, um, there's something leadership-wise, and then I think there's something player-wise. Um, and I guess it's all interlinked. Um, so if I go winning team, let's go to the corporate space and look at um Nokia, then Blackberry. Um, so often when you're first to market, um, you get success, right? So it's like you found a formula, you're first in the market, you are operating, you are humming, and everyone is trying to go to where you are. So then I think it's easy in that place to rest on your laurels slightly and believe that that which you are doing now will always be good enough. Instead of potentially saying, well, what's gotten us here must be of some value because flip, we are the world's best at the moment. But who is busy at the moment looking at where is the where is the market going and what's gonna be relevant? Um, let's take a bit of a bias example, let's say the Springbox in 2019. They went into that World Cup with a new system of high, high press defense. Um, we're gonna be dominant in set pieces, we're gonna be dominant with our defense and kicking games. That's where we're gonna be. That's how they won the 2019 World Cup. But there was a realization, and the attack was sort of on the back burning. There was a realization that at the next World Cup, we might have to score a bit more points. So, yes, the rush defense still matters, yes, the break, uh, the defense matters, yes, the set piece matters, but we've got to evolve in terms of point scoring because that's where the game is headed. Um, so it's almost like while you're at the top of your game, is there an ability to keep 80% of what you're doing the same, but also looking to evolve to see what's next, what's gonna keep you in front? And I must say, I feel like our national side does that incredibly well. So I think the first one organizationally is how do you keep evolving while you are winning? Um, because it's easy to look for I need to be better when you're second or third, because you're like, I want to be like number one. But while you're number one, is there a part of your organization that's trying to critique and look in and say, well, if we don't improve this, we might not stay number one, or we might not get even further ahead. How's that as a start?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that style, man.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well that's good.
SPEAKER_00I've got a little thought just crop creeped into our head there. Um, around sometimes when you're winning stuff easy for whatever reason, like that context you talked about, like it was new or whatever. I I I when I was a young man, I did a bit of property investing, bought like cheap houses and flicked them on. And when I first started
Why Winning Teams Stop Winning
SPEAKER_00that, I did particularly well, like just purely on the market, was good. And so I thought I was excellent. I thought I was a great property investor, but I wasn't actually doing the process of stuff, the deed. I just got lucky with my timing. I was in at the right time, and then when the market started to shift and I got a little bit cocky with things, and I bought up probably a little bit more than I should, all of a sudden I realized um what I know is actually not cutting it these days, like the market forces are so much better and different now. I am battling and I can't get away with doing what I was doing, and I didn't, and then had to start again and actually go through some pretty hard times to learn the lessons which I didn't learn at the start because I was winning and doing well, and I just I just thought, ah, this is great on the man, and I clearly wasn't. Um, and I think it's the same with sports teams too. Sometimes it's like particularly players, we talked about just in that last segment about individuals first. Sometimes when the team wins, individuals go, I'm great. Where it's really the team is going great, and it might be the fact that you have Jonah Lomu on the wing scoring 84 tries a game, and you think you're as a lock forward brilliant because you're winning games. But when if you were to be really hard on yourself, Jonalomu scoring 84 tries was the reason we won this game, not because of my pushing in the scrums or my lineouts, because they were decidedly average. But if I gloss over that fact because we won, like I did with my early property purchases, then you get exposed later on when it gets when when Jonah isn't playing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's that's so good, man. Um, and I think all of that sort it almost puts the dynamic nature of winning, um, that it's never standing still, it's always moving, somebody's always trying to catch you. So it's always somebody's trying to catch you. You've got to be trying figuring out how do I stay ahead, you know? Um, you never you never stand still with that. So I think that's the ones like if you could think at its height, um, the Nokia phone or BlackBerry with the DBM, at its height, it's almost like I can see how you can fall into the trap of this is awesome. Nobody else is ever gonna get here. So I don't look down on those people and say, what's wrong with you? I look at that and say, wow, what a warning sign. And I can see how easy it is, you can get caught up drinking your own Kool-Aid because it just makes sense, right? It's the best thing at the time. Um, so I think that's the one section. The other one is is the leadership. Like, if I look at organizations that have won for a long time, the quality of the head coach or director is everything, man. And like, so the the success is a custodian. Um, yes, it's got an organization, but often it's got a custodian. So if you look at the the Bulls in the late 90s, early 2000s under Heineken, who then went on to coach the Screenbox. I mean, he's like a he's a figure in the place. You know, I was a junior player when I walked around there. When you saw him, you could just sense this guy's got an aura. Like he's carrying this organization. Like he he embodies everything that he wants this organization to be. Um, and they went on to win super rugby's and do all of these things because yes, he's got a leadership team. Yes, he's got um Ian Schwartz, who's the guy in the office making sure that the stuff on the field is sorted for him, but it still requires a father of the house. Manchester United required Sir Alex Ferguson. When the Lions had their evolution in the middle 2000s when they played in those three super rugby seasons, it had a Johan Ackerman. Um, all these institutions have a main custodian who does and operates. So that's the positive, is that you've got a custodian. But I think also, Ben, the ability of the custodian to pass over the baton onto the next guy so that we we transition well, um, I think that is quite a skill. So if you look at again the Man United example, how long it's taken them to recover. If you look at the bulls of old, um, I think it's probably when Jake White came back uh over a decade later, where the bulls started to find their mojo again, um, the Lions are also probably in a phase where they haven't reached those heights again. So I think on a leadership front, yes, the persona, yes, the custodian, but also how is that transition of passing the baton onto the next leader so that you can keep the momentum of the success that was once heralded by whoever that one main custodian was. Um and you can have a look often um in that how a change of baton um either accelerates the winning or sometimes there's a drop um in the performance. And more often than not, there's been a drop if you can look um throughout um sporting teams as you study them.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I love that one. I think that's a massive one. That baton change. It's um yeah, it's really good. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Uh last one, Benjamin. Um, so sorry, um, I remember we said organization leader, last one. I think on the ground, um, the quality of competition for places is I think it's it's probably one of the most underrated key performance areas in any success. Is that when when when all the team, when all the players on the ground know that selection is not a given to anybody in the team. I just think your standard of training, your behaviors, all of those things are handled by the fact that imagine sitting in a room and Messi is in your team. And I know it's a worst case example because he's all Cristiano Ronaldo, and they sitting there when a team's announced and they're not even sure whether they're gonna play or not. Like that's a different type of presence. Like you arrive knowing I've got to earn my selection. And when you've got your entire group thinking they've got to earn their selection, your standard of training, of gym, of interaction, of taking ownership just rises high above because we all know one, we want to be a part of this because this thing is winning. But two is I want to earn my way into that place so that I can be part of this winning thing. So I think competition on the ground is massive. Any coach who goes into a place where certain players know they're gonna be selected, I think you lose. Probably one of our biggest um power plays as coaches is selection. And once somebody knows they're definitely gonna be selected, man, I don't know how good that is for a team. Um, so if you asked me why do winning teams stop winning, I would say going now from the ground up is you probably get a playing group or a certain amount of players who know they're gonna play anyway. And what that does is another guy in the position says, Why must I keep trying? Because I know Ben is gonna play ahead of me anyway. But in an example, so I think that's where you can lose quality, then obviously on a leadership level is passing on of the baton from the main custodian, and then lastly, organizationally, is how when we are humming at our very best, do we have the capacity and the ability to evolve? I would try to take that answer into those three categories, Ben, is my view.
SPEAKER_00Oh, and and and that's a great one. That last one about that everyone's avoidable for selection, and that's the custodians, the the head coaches, or that father figure's responsibility to create that feeling, right? And be hard on it and just and understand the little ripples that it's creating in in players. And I'll give you an example. It's also again the connection between the organizational piece and that the next level down. I remember we had in Japan, one of the teams we were with, we had an amazing pre-season with all the non or you know how you get you get your um international players back late, like just before the first game of the season. And we'd had an amazing pre-season. We trained really hard. The the guys that were there, who were the you'd argue, the second rate players, were trained the house down. We won every preseason game. I know it's pre-season, we all knew it was preseason, but that doesn't happen, and they were just outstanding. And then we decided when those other boys came back that we wouldn't start them as a bit of a tip of the hat to those guys that had been doing the work for three or four months, and it created this cool feel, and we actually went on and they and that we won. We won a game we probably shouldn't have, so it was a big call, and you could just see these players were so lifted to know that the better players were on the bench because they hadn't been there doing the work. Uh, it was awesome, and we won it. However, the like all like the week, the big bosses of the company, the bigger organizational piece in Japan came down hard at me, the coach, around these guys have to play, they're our best players. You need to pick them, and it was this tension. Like, I I could only imagine what would have happened if we lost. I would have got an absolute airful around it. This is suicide, you're playing your lesser team. But what I was trying to do was create this reward for those that just done everything we would have asked for as a coach and beyond. Um, and to then just the internationals come in, you just play them, you're you're gonna you're gonna lose some face because I've been saying all this stuff preseason, and if I'm to turn on my heels and just pick the guys that have just come back, it would make a mockery of our preseasons in my head. So I was worth it. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You've always got gold, and I think a piece of gold there is the uh for for for the the why teams keep winning or why do they stop winning is the alignment between the organization and the main custodian is so massive. Hey, like if if they if they're on the same page. So imagine in your example in Japan, if the organization bought into this, and as those new prop arrived, um, in your meeting, potentially the general manager of the company sits with DNA says, Hey guys, listen, I've spoken to Ben. Our mission is we want to reward these guys by saying they've had a great pre-season. So we're gonna play them on the front end. The players look at this and say, I've got no way out, right? Because the guy paying out check agrees with the guy who's keeping me accountable Monday to Sunday. So they're on the same page. And and the exact the same on the opposite way, right? So if you preach to these guys, I'm gonna give you an opportunity, this is gonna go. Then the guy at the top comes in and says something contrary. Now you're sitting there as a leader. What do I do? Do I stay honest to my word, to the players who've worked hard in preseason, or do I honor the guy who pays me my salary? So that lack of alignment on a leadership thing, and I wouldn't even lead that on the organization, Ben. Um, similar to what Dave Nasafurio was saying, I would leave that on the leader and saying, listen, dude, you you you've got to manage that. You've got to make sure that they got buy-in into what you did before preseason so they can go with you on that team. But it's never that easy. I know I'm speaking theoretically because the guys pay us and they pay a lot of money for these players, but that dynamic can also sync a team on performance.
SPEAKER_00That is the job of the coach, isn't it, to get that alignment that's on in in today's modern coaching, head coaching, that is the job to get the alignment. And if you don't get it right, as I've happened once or twice before, it it sort of unravels a little bit. No, mate, here's the next question. Can nice leaders win?
SPEAKER_01How do you how do you how do you define nice?
SPEAKER_00I don't really know, mate. But there's a there's a sentiment behind it. Um and it's probably in line with this cultural piece is in an old school way of coaching is you have to be you have to sh show this face or this mask of this angry, gruff sort of fella that gets pissy and annoyed with stuff just to show that you're a certain sort of coach because that's a winning sort of coach. However, as coaching is is changing, modern coaching, there's a lot more vulnerability and things like that. There's a nice uh there's a nicer feel to some of the leaders. Now, can that win? And are other examples of that? And I guess nice is just being less volatile, really, less less answ against people, less you know, um nineteen eighties basketball coach on a sideline flailing arms and pointing and getting ejected from games.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I uh I'm almost taking a time to think through it because I don't want to answer this one loosely because I think it's a flipping good question. I think it's a really high quality question. And I'd almost start by saying on a high level, you can win if you're nice, if you're a nice guy. So, what what I mean by that is if you are being authentic to who you are, and you being a nice guy, I think you can do it because you are being 100% yourself. So if you're a nice person or a nice guy, you know how to get the best out of people in your nice way. And you know how to encourage in a nice way because your whole life you've been living and you've been nice. So you you do that well. Um, I think if a nice guy tries to take on the persona of a tough guy, I don't think you can win because people are looking at you and saying, at some point they see what, but that is not authentically who you are. You aren't that guy. So we see you trying to be somebody else. And I think you lose the essence of what you're trying to achieve the minute you're not who you really are. So if I look around and I look at some of the best coaches in the world at the moment, I think the person who you get. So let's say Pep Guardiola, for example, when you watch his documentary, you see a guy who's super passionate about how he wants to play. You see a guy who's relational, who takes a player around the neck and says, Do you see this, this, this? And he shares with him that way. If a guy like that turns around and then he becomes the super passive, nice-ish oak, you're like looking at him, but who are you? You know, or Jose Mourinho's hardcore, but he's got a side to him that is nice away from the field, but in the heat of the moment, you see a hardcorness to him. So without babbling on too long, I think you can win as a nice guy if nice is at the center of who you are. Um, and then on the other
Can Nice Leaders Still Win
SPEAKER_01side, because I think this is a complex answer, is that um nice is not the absence of truth or the absence of accountability, right? That that is not what being nice is, I hope. That's not in that definition. It's it's it's expressing how do you deal with the emotional parts of the game. So, how do you deal with complimenting? How do you build deal with challenging people, and how do you deal with getting the most out of people? And what is your way of doing that and how authentic can you be towards that? So, between training sessions, between meetings, walking past a guy, patting you on the back, asking him how's your family, how are you doing, that matters to me. Like, I I genuinely don't ever want to coach in a place where I can't have those conversations with people, where I can't ask them, how's your marriage going? How are the kids? Um, what did you guys do on the holiday? I enjoy that. Like, I just feel the human element matters to me as a coach. So in that moment, you can argue Joey's a nice guy. That's and that's okay. Like you can take your interpretation and say he's caring, whatever it is, or he's nice. But when there is something to be demanded out of you to get a performance for us on the weekend, well, then I need to be who Joey needs to be to get the best out of that person. And I have found in my way, the way I go about it, is to be as honest as possible in front of the group in a way that is as close to being Joey who I am. So I would do it like this. I want to say, Ben, let's be honest. There is more to you than that. You have lied to us there, or you have not been honest to the man who you say you claim to be. Because you claim to be part of this team. This team asks of you to do triple efforts when nobody's looking. And if you look there, when everybody was looking, you did the effort. But the minute the ball moved away from you, you took five steps to get into your next team because you weren't seen. Um wait, I I don't want to lose this because I think it's such a good question. I want to answer it properly to get to it. I think authenticity is part of it. I think authenticity is a big part, Ben. So I'm just almost trying to gather all my thoughts again. Authenticity. If you're a nice guy, be a nice guy. If you're an honest guy, be an honest guy. Um nice can win when nice is authentically nice. And you have worked out how am I nice in winning? How am I nice in losing? How am I nice in review, preview, and all the places where I'm interacting with people, is my niceness getting me over the line? But if I'm trying to be nice because somebody's saying nice is the new way of winning, I think you're gonna lose yourself, Ben. Like, I can't do that. Like, nice for me is being relational away from the game, asking how you are doing. But in a meeting, I'm gonna be as real as I need to be, not disrespectful, not rude, but as honest as I need to be to get the point of grass so that nobody else makes the same mistakes that you made, or that people will look at that behavior and say, I want to repeat that behavior because I'm seeing that that behavior is being rewarded in this context. Um, so yeah, so I think if you were editing this thing, I'd probably more focus on the second part of the answer because I'm more like, um, look, Ben, this is a yes, yeah. I thought I was gonna articulate this one much better, but I don't know. What are you hearing?
SPEAKER_00What I heard from you, there's a sentence in here which I think sums it up beautifully. You just said nice is not the absence of truth. And I that's that struck me really strongly because you can replace nice with any personality trait. You could say angry is not the absence of truth, and being a mean coach is not the absence of truth, being a tough coach is not the absence of truth, you can just substitute any personality type in there, and as we know with personality types, there isn't a prototype of a coach, they all can work so long as you there is not the absence of truth, the moment you are not telling some pulling someone up at the right time, or you're letting things slide, or you are telling lies or being dishonest, or being even just dishonest to your own authentic self, that's when your personality traits are detrimental to the outcome. That's where nice is detrimental. But I think nice is not the absence of truth. So if a nice guy still hits people with the truth when they need to be hit with it, and they do it in their way, that's got all the recipes for a winning team. But if he doesn't, then I think it can be the opposite, along with personality traits.
SPEAKER_01Mate, that's why you do what you do. I think you've you've summed that whole part up. I think a lot of it was babbling from my side, but I think the way you said that was so good, man. Like honestly, like it's it's it's so clear, so clear that that essence of truth. Because if you look at truth, truth is standard, um, truth is what we stand for, truth is what we said we're gonna live by. So find your way of articulating that and asking for standards out of people, whether it's nice, harsh, or whatever it is. I I agree with you. Uh I uh well done, well done, mate.
SPEAKER_00Truth and truth can um truth is one of those words too where there's a lot of context to truth, too. Um, there's a lot of variances and nuances, and I think truth can shift and change over time as well. What was true for us then is actually not true for us anymore. Um I think um it's true if we do this, this, and this, we'll probably win the game. Whereas once teams start working that out, that's no longer the truth. That's very different. So what we said back then now needs to be edited and revised here, and you can do that in any way you want. Now, yeah, do you think along with this niceness things, do you think leaders should show weakness, Joey? Is that a trait of modern coaching though, which is important? Should leaders show weakness?
SPEAKER_01I think if we look at the function of a coach over time, um, there was a time when the coach was all-knowing, hey. So, like he was either a past player who had all the experience or the person who had studied on a topic and they telling people what to do. So therefore, you are the main source of knowledge and you tell people and people apply. So then you can't be vulnerable because the minute you say I don't know or I don't understand, people look at you, but you're not doing your job because your job is to know and to tell us. But as time has evolved, I mean, Chat GPT now, if you just type in there, how do I become the best nice coach ever? It's going to tell you exactly what to do. So now suddenly the audience is all knowing. The audience has got um a knowledge base far greater than myself, whether it's having been coached by other coaches, better coaches, or more experienced coaches, or it's been in different contexts around the world, or they were part of a leadership team where they learned a lot more than what I know. So if I don't have the capacity again to the word truth, to stand up and say, yes, see, you stumped me on that one. I really don't know. Um, what do you think? And can I get back to you on that one? So I think the all-knowing leader, the all-source of knowledge, um, the um the guy who's on the surface, like I'm always got it under control. I think those days are kind of past. But I think the wisdom comes been to to whom can you expose your vulnerability? So if the team is going through a flippin' tough time and we've lost three in a row, I would love to have assistant coaches who I can go to a couple of men and say, Boys, I am flipping struggling. This is tough. Like, this has probably been the toughest part of my coaching I've ever had. I've never been with a team through this lull. I think that's healthy because it's people you trust, it's an inner sanctuary. But in front of the team, I might have to act a bit. I might have to make those three losses look like, boys, the next one, I'm giving you my word, this is gonna be where the season changes. I have never believed in a group of men more than I believe in you guys to make this happen. So am I false? Maybe you can say I'm false, but I have done my confession. My confession has been done to my inner group of guys. I've been honest with them, I've been vulnerable with them, but you don't need me to be a crying coach right now. You don't need me to show that side. You need me to be this person to you so that I can get the best out of you. So I think vulnerability, yes, but I think vulnerability to the right people at
Vulnerability, AI, And Psychological Safety
SPEAKER_01the right time is as important as choosing to be vulnerable.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, man, I like it. I also liked how you reference the AI stuff. And the reality is these days, anyone can find out the information these days easy. Like you, like and you and coaches, if you haven't done this, you should do this as an example. Like you type in any two teams in the world and try international teams and say, This is the French lineup, they're playing South Africa this weekend. How would you beat the Springbox based on how they're playing the last two test matches? And you do that, and you'll be s amazed at how good the the analysis and and the instruction is. You can almost cut and paste and say, We'll use that, thanks. And you can actually do that with your own team if your team's assertively up there. But AI can't show weakness, you don't feel vulnerability from Chat GBT. These are things which those two things don't have. They have all the information anyone can access it. But no student or player can go and and get real vulnerability from ChatGBT. No matter how it tries, it will be forced as hell. So it almost you almost have to double down on the fact that young people these days get all the information, but they're not after more information. They can get information better and easier than you will ever be able to provide. What they can't get is that feeling underneath it. And I think the and the feeling particularly is that sort of weakness. Because AI doesn't ever not know the answer. So it never admits that. And that's where you can have a little bit of point of difference, if that's a point of difference to have. But in a world where you can get instant answers, instant gratification, instant knowledge, then have a little bit of this human side of I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01I think you are sure. And I think you've the past two questions, I think for me, you've hit the the center point of them. So if you spoke in the previous one about nice is fine as long as there's truth, and then in this one you spoke about vulnerability and how AI can't give you a vulnerability. If you look at it, maybe the point of difference in coaching is your human element. You and I can coach the exact same defensive system. And you we might both be nice or both be um honest or abrasive coaches, yet your benness and your joeiness, isn't that then the point of difference? So if I'm trying to be nice, but I'm not a nice guy, or if I'm trying to act like I'm not vulnerable, but I'm meant to be vulnerable, the minute I waver away from who I authentically am, and I don't want to use the word authentic because it's like overused and abused, but the the sense of the less I am of Joey, the less Joeiness I can bring to the thing. And then I'm losing my point of difference. Because as you've said, the knowledge base is there, the personality type is there, but the point of difference is benness. What is the bendness in this situation? Because that is what ultimately is going to be the link between me and the knowledge, the guys who get knowledge, you know. So if somebody asks something vulnerability, the way I'm going about being vulnerable, that that is the point of difference. And I think the wisdom, again, like I said, comes into who you decide to be vulnerable to about what, um, based on your context.
SPEAKER_00I think you're I think you're absolutely right, mate. The humanness, the beniantness, the joeiness. And and maybe another example is in in my household, the kids know the dadness around me. They know my little quirks, they know the things that they just don't bother asking me, like where are my shoes? They just don't ask that, they just go look for them. They know that if they ask me for ice cream at certain times, it'll be a hell yes. They know that, and they know that's different to mumness. But those are the little human traits that you know in a rugby field. If I know Joey's next to me, he's gonna join us, he's gonna go and jam that guy. So I'm going with him. Now, a computer might not, an AI program might not pick that up in Joey, but I know, just like my kids know about the dadness, they might assume Joe blogs might assume I know where everyone's shoes are, but my kids know I have no idea. And so they know they have to look for themselves. And same with those sort of things, when you know these little human traits, um, the AI, the chat GBT, says all the technical points of how you're gonna do a tackle, but then our connection, our little special piece, our humanness, makes us understand what the guy next to us may or may not do.
SPEAKER_01And understand mate, mate, you are so good. Listen to listen to what you say, which I think is super cool. There's an element of psychological safety to what you say because your kids, because they know when you ask them about the shoes that you're not gonna answer them, there's an all our brains want to do, our brains want to do the same thing over and over again so they get neural pathways. So the minute I know how somebody's gonna respond to something, I can be safe, right? So whether you're a nice coach or an abrasive coach, the way we play it on a Saturday, when I come sitting on the meeting on a Monday, I know what I'm gonna get because the I am so in tune with the benness or the joeiness of this thing. So I sit there in that chair, not confused, what's coming to me. I know what's coming to me. It may come in a slightly varied version of it, but there's something about the humanness that allows a predictability that gives people a psychological safety of I know what this environment is. Because your my kids, if your kids come to my house, I might tell them where their shoes are. Then they get confused, like, what sort of dad is this? Why is he telling us where the shoes are? Ah, Oak never tells us. But if they know that all dads around the world, all of them never tell their kids where their shoes are, there's a certain certainty about what doing. And maybe that was a poor example. But the point is the fact that they know what to expect from the old man, that's peace, that's safety. Um, and yeah, I think we bring that the more authentic we are as people, as coaches in an environment.
SPEAKER_00And this is probably going back to what you talked about earlier about those fathering roles, those custodian roles of like the Alex Fergusons, those legend legendary, the Bellamy's in the storm. Those type of legendary coaches create this certainness, that fathering certainness, so that they don't have to do much around the environment. And a lot of them don't. A lot of them are just there, and the players know inherently if Craig Bellamy's there, we're on. Because we know what he's gonna do. If he sees a single person with the shoelaces undone, you're gonna get torn a new one, and so you just don't do it. Just like um, you know, when dad's at home when he's just out of this cusp of grumpiness, and you know, don't ask him for something now. Just I'll just go to bed. If dad says go to bed now, you just go because he's got that little tone in his voice, it's not worth what's gonna happen. And that is what custodians are teams, the best ones, seem to have that real certainty. That's what I want.
SPEAKER_01That's so good, man. That is so good.
SPEAKER_00This is a pleasure, mate. Mate, we again, mate, every time we talk, like it's just ridiculous, mate. Like, it's it's ridiculous. I just feel like we're just we're just winging stuff here, mate. But it's it's it's a it's an absolute joy, mate. You you're you're uh an absolute joy to talk to, mate. And your words and your vocab and your inspiration around this stuff just lights little bits up of your brain, you know, and it connects it. What um what it's like it's like yeah, you're just igniting little like you're striking that match in the brain with some of your words, and like you're never sure which fuse or if a fuse is gonna take, but for someone listening, something's gonna have litten up in here and it's gonna go and skirt through their brain like at the back of a fuse on a rocket ship, and who knows where they'll go. So I love it, mate. Joey Mugalo, I'm I'm not I'm not gonna do my three takeaways from this one, mate, as I normally do, because I just don't know which ones ones to pick. We started off with the tornado analogies, and we talked about burning frogs and boiling water, and then we went to like how to be a weightlifting spotter when we're talking about equal but not the same. We talked about selection not being a given, we talked about coach custodians' responsibilities, that nature is nice, and nice is not the absence of truth. We talked about reversing a team first mentality and making sure an individual first works well as well. We talked about um slowing Ruck down and winning the penalties is mediocre language when we just want to steal the ball. We talked about the humanness, about the benness, about the joeiness, the dadness. We talked about AI and ChatGPT can't show weakness and does not feel vulnerability, and potentially that's where we should be putting a lot of our time and effort as coaches into being the best versions of ourselves. The coachness, which is the humanness. Joe Margallo, what an absolute pleasure. Once again, number three, for joining me here on the Coach and Culture podcast today, my friend.
SPEAKER_01Benjamin. Um absolute pleasure, mate. And uh I want to say thank you for your kind words around the effect that you feel um I have on a session like this. So thank you very much. Um, words are powerful, and I take those and I put them inside of me, and may they produce more. And then to you, bro, I keep saying your ability to carry a conversation and unearth the gold out of this. Um, I know you're making a massive difference in many people's lives, and keep doing that, bro.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, mate. And before we do, I would like to also shout out, mate, where do people find you, mate? If they want to have more of these conversations in person with you, my friend, where do they get where do they find you? Where do they look you up and go book in a session with Joey Mongolo?
SPEAKER_01What a guy. Um, the two platforms I use the most is LinkedIn. So I've got a LinkedIn account there, Joey Mongalo, as is on your screen there, Ben, just the spelling. And I have recently um redone my business away from Rugby alongside Rugby. I've named a company called Realign, which is a consulting company performance by design, hence the the background. Um, so if you go www.realignegrowth.com, you should find me on that. So thank you very much, Benjamin, for giving a shout out to that.
SPEAKER_00I love it, mate. And I would be racing in to get that if I was someone that's had their fuse lit today. That that LinkedIn or that website should be the first one you have. Joey, bloody legend, brother.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, mate. Appreciate you.