Ex-All Blacks Analyst Reveals the Danger of Statistics | Al Rodgers

You can know the “right” answer as a coach and still miss the point if your environment pushes people in the wrong direction. That’s the thread we pull on with Al Rogers, who spent nine years as an All Blacks analyst during a golden run, then moved into coaching across Super Rugby, international rugby, and Japan. We get honest about what actually changes performance: not a wall of slogans or a spreadsheet of stats, but the daily culture you create and the behaviors you reinforce when things get hard.

We start with a simple coaching habit that most people skip: being open with other coaches. Al shares why post-game conversations with opposition staff can be the best feedback you’ll ever get, even when you’re rivals. From there we define culture as the environment that shapes behavior and talk about how pressure reveals what’s real. Al brings vivid examples from Pacific Island teams where laughter, music, and fun are not “extras” but central tools that keep energy high and anxiety low when it matters.

We also go deep on clarity and curiosity as competitive advantages. Elite coaches simplify the game so athletes can get out of their own way, master the fundamentals, and ignore the noise. On the analytics side, Al explains why data needs context, how stats should start conversations rather than end them, and how simple tools like traffic light self-ratings can expose misalignment quickly while building trust.

If you care about coaching culture, leadership, rugby coaching, high performance, and sports analytics that actually helps people, this one will give you practical frameworks you can use immediately. Subscribe, share this with a coach who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Is your school the best in your country? Let me know Ben@coachingculture.com.au

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Transcript

Big Ideas To Open The Show

SPEAKER_00 1:23

You have to be strong in your principles, but flexible in your thinking. That's important too. Measure it. The art of culture is to give the athlete everything they need and nothing they don't. They wanted to try and help them piece together parts of the jigsaw so that they could solve the puzzle. There's so much noise, but they have the ability to separate the noise from the signal. That is part of a picture, isn't it? You know, it's like there's always you you always have to have the context behind it.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this title game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Al Rogers. Al spent nine years as analysis for the All Blacks during the team's most successful period winning back-to-back World Cups. He transitioned into coaching, taking on the defense role for the Blues in Super Rugby, and internationally with Samar for his third World Cup. He skipped over to Japan and coached Toshiba and Cannon. And myself and Al were were in neighboring townships while going through COVID. And G was good to chat with Al regularly as we snuck off for cold coffee in Times and chewed the fat about everything to do with rugby and coaching. It is an absolute pleasure to have my old friend here. Al, welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Ben, awesome to catch up. Great to see you. Looking fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Mate, geez, you're a charmer, aren't you, mate?

SPEAKER_00 2:41

And thankfully that you didn't mention the burgers that we used to catch up with too. They were good as Moss Burgers.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

The Moss burgers, when we had to sort of sneak out and sort of order them slyly and then sit together on a park bench with our masks on and taken down and all that sort of thing. It was probably just reflecting on that. When you're when you're both of us with uh away from our families in Japan coaching, uh very good top league sides in a foreign language, and just having that ability to to jump on your bike and ride to your neighbouring club and chat to your opposing coach and become good mates and talk about all the frustrations and uh goods and bads about coaching in a foreign country. It was uh it was lovely to have just a sounding board, wasn't it, mate? Like it it really makes a difference

Japan Coaching And Finding A Sounding Board

SPEAKER_01 3:23

in your coaching when you've got someone to bounce ideas and frustrations on, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yeah, I think you did right. And I think it's it's kind of accentuated over there as well, isn't it? Because of the language and so that someone from like connection from home is always awesome, and as you say, be able to share ideas of the game and and kind of try things, look at things through different lenses, and yeah, it's awesome. And and I I think you notice like over there, eh, where like I was so lucky to have so many of those kind of experiences wherever we went across Japan. You know, like catch up with different cook coaches and um and chew the fat, but it was nothing nothing better than being able to just locally jump on a bike and as you say and just have a have a burger.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Well, mate, I actually think there's something to be said about this in general, wherever you're coaching, to adopt that mindset of just being really open and transparent and share everything you got, because we were very good with that. Like it didn't matter that we're in rival teams, we just say exactly what we're doing. And it didn't matter because the game is the same all over the show, and the art of coaching is not necessarily the X's and O's that you're teaching, but uh the level of influence you're getting on your team. And the best way to improve is to be open and share your stuff with other coaches because you get it back tenfold, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah, I remember like Wayne Smith was probably the biggest influence of that kind of part of it for me was share, you get one thing back, give something. But then also you may have to adapt. So I was really good at that with with Dave Rainey, you know, like after Blue's Chiefs, we'd sit literally, we we could be playing each other in a couple of weeks' time. And Reigns and I would have a beer and I'd say, What did you see in our defense? And he'd say, Oh, see this. It would be allow me to go, Oh, I actually covered that this week, or maybe I didn't think of that. I may have to think about that, you know, like I missed something or I covered something. So you have to take all all those. It's it's like the best form of feedback in a way, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

You know, and it's raw. And you've you know, even though you go, Oh no, I didn't think of that, or I didn't you it certainly allows you to be really vulnerable with yourself, I reckon.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

And it was likewise him, or what did you see in our attack? Oh, I thought you were going to do this to us, and yeah, we tried to do this and create conversations, even though we're playing we're playing them in in a couple of weeks' time. You know, re it it really kind of um allows you to think a little bit differently and yeah, be vulnerable, I reckon.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

In fact, th that that's that's a little cue there for coaches around are you a coach that as soon as the game's finished, you just walk off and shake hands and say nothing? Or do you take that five, ten minutes to just have a moment on the field with the opposition opposition coach and just ask some of that stuff? And what were you guys trying? Like, where did you see our weaknesses? And and it seems like something that people wouldn't answer, but good people, good coaches who know the art and craft of coaching are pretty open about that stuff because it elicits a response. And you learn so much by just being open. And as an example, mate, here this is the one that got me. I was coaching on the Seventh Circuit with Canada, and on one of the days of the games, I was on the bike in the gym, the hotel gym with Gordon Titchens, who coached the New Zealand team. And he asked me a question, he goes, Well, what are you dealing with one of our players? I see you're defending him there. Well, why do you do that? And I just told him, and he goes, Yeah, yeah, I thought that would be the reason, and that's why we're gonna do this play against you. And he goes, I don't mind telling you that, because you still have to defend it. And if you try defend it the way I think you might try to defend it, we're gonna expose you over here. And he told me that the day of the game the that the that we were playing them, and I was like, he's just told us what he's gonna do. And knowing that, we went and talked about as a team, and we still couldn't stop it. They they just did it. So it didn't actually matter. We knew what they were doing. He he openly said what he was they were doing, and he said he actually referenced it by saying, You have to be bloody good to stop this. So, you know, if you can, good luck to you. You still have to make those tackles. And he was right, like, yeah, yeah, even if you know what teams are doing, you kind of know what teams do anyway at at most levels of the game. Like, it's only when you get to sort of the international World Cup finals where those little millimetres might make a difference. But for the rest of coaches, it's pretty don't be so precious about your stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Do you know I I'll I'll share uh certainly from my my perspective anyway was around uh 2015 World Cup and a conversation we had with Mark, oh I can't remember who the it might have been Mark Leaven more, or I can't remember who the one of the coaches was who we I was talking to after the game, and he said, Oh, we c we we found it really difficult to exit. And I thought, oh, okay, let's go. And then I re-went had a look at the game, and I was able then to kind of talk to uh to Steve. I went and met Steve the following morning and gone, have a look at this. He was like, Okay, cool. And then the following week we played the box and we really put an emphasis on that, and again we strangled him on the exit, and then the following week we did exactly the same thing. And talking to Nathan Gray after the final, he was like, Oh, we couldn't exit. So it was like, I would never have if if we hadn't had similar conversations, you know. I I would never have kind of seen it at that point, I think, anyway. I would certainly not not have. So it was definitely it was definitely uh uh it helped us.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Mate. One of the questions we always start with is is how do you define culture? And what is your version or and definition of culture?

SPEAKER_00 8:38

It's such a good question, isn't it? Renee, I bet most of the guys have said the same thing, but um it is a good question because it's one of the it's the it's the invisibles, isn't it isn't it, really? Like culture for me is the environment that shapes behaviour. That's how I define it. So the environment that shapes the behaviour. It's not stuff that's kind of written on a wall or um it's everything about how people live every day, the experience they have every day. It's built through behaviors, it's built through challenge

Why Sharing With Rivals Makes You Better

SPEAKER_00 9:08

and what you will walk past and what you care to in front and have conversations about. And I think probably the biggest thing is it's revealing through pressure.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yes, right. It's tested under pressure in the rain, as they sometimes say.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Yeah, yeah. So that's probably what comes to mind when I think about culture. Behavior creates the performance, I reckon.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Well what's been some of the unique aspects of the cultures you've been in? So you've been in the All Blacks for a long time, you've been in uh Samoa, you've been in the Blues, you've been at a couple of Japanese top league sides, very good ones. What's a couple of the the cultural pieces that have jumped out for you that you think that was really good how that environment did that?

SPEAKER_00 9:51

I think the central thing, like with with the Pacific Island teams that I've had the privilege of being with, um, you know, fun is a real central thing. So if we if there's not laughter, then we know we've got a problem. So hearing the boys laugh, hearing them cha-hoo, hearing the they giggle the energy around the place, like if that starts to to stop them, we need to try and figure out what's going on, you know? Um even things like bus rides, like uh uh uh the the difference of an all-black bus ride to a Samoa national team bus ride, uh like it's like a disco on the bus ride. It's magnificent. It's just the energy and the fun and the um so it took that took a little bit of getting used to. What's an all-black bus like? I guess, you know, pretty pretty a little bit of their own in music and after trainings is pretty, pretty, pretty noisy. I was certainly in my time, but um nothing like like it's a party on on on those buses, like it's unbelievable. Yeah, and I uh initially it's kind of like this is not surely this has affected our performance, but it's not. Doesn't. It's that's just what part of part of the culture and and part of something that we embrace then, you know. Um just yeah, things like that really.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

And yeah, do you think it's uh do you think it's a reflection of the wider society, like uh like Pacific Island cultures where music and dance is actually a really prevalent part of their national culture anyway, regardless if you're playing sport or not. Like a lot of those uh some on schools, particularly in Thomas schools as well, like singing, like it's compulsory, and so everyone's a good singer. And dancing is just something which is done so much more, certainly when in New Zealand context, most New Zealands are average singers at best. And you look how many people sing the national anthem, and it's almost well, it used to be zero, now there's a few more. But I can imagine if you took away the background accompanying music, it would sound pretty horrendous. Whereas Polynesian cultures inherently, you know, singing is a big part of it and a beautiful part of it, and it's done really well anyway.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Yeah, we I just kind of remembered that probably go off track a little bit, but we played one game with we were in Spain actually, we played Spain with Samoa on an India Tour. And the strength and conditioning coach had said to uh me, hey, just an observation, a half time, it's sorry, I'll just rewind a bit. It was the third kind of game in our Andy A Tour. He said, the the consistent thing at halftime was when new coaches leave, the energy drops. So he said, How do you think we could address it? No, you know, that's what it was a great question. So we get to the third third game, and uh Steve Jackson was the head coach. I said at Jekko, this is, you know, this has been told to me. Uh what do you and he said, Well, what do you think? And I was like, Well, what about we play music at halftime? You know, because maybe it's a little bit of anxiety and uh fatigue or so, you know, there's a reason for it. And we see the boys most energized on the bus. So why don't we just play one of the songs that are on the bus? We chatted to the leaders, uh, and they said, Yeah, well, you know, let's just give it a go. Uh come off half time. It was w really quite a tough game for us. Spanish game, and it's quite close to halftime. And so we we had our meetings and then we broke off and then we just started to play the this music. And while the dressing room went just the energy in the dressing room just went crazy. And everyone got into it, to be fair. Um and then second half we just ran away with it. It was it was something that I didn't like. My reflection on that piece was you you you probably couldn't do it every test match. But it did twofold. It not only raised our energy levels, but then when I spoke to the Spanish coach after the game, the team were running out past us at halftime and listening to our boys having a party at halftime, and they he had sent, What the hell did you guys do? Because he said our boys went the other way. They were like shitting themselves, basically. Which it, you know, you you don't kind of think of at the time. But yeah, it's it it's certainly, as you say, because it's part of culture and part of the society, and we managed to kind of hone in on that when we needed it at a time where we needed it. Certainly worked. We were brave enough to be able to do it, you know?

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Well, I think that is brave, mate. And I also think that it's it's it's really cool. It's a cool example of the fact that culture has always got to be specific to you in your context. You can't just generically take a thing that works over here and think it's gonna work for you. So that same example might be horrendous if the English rugby team did that. But you've obviously understood and you you paid attention to good people uh saying stuff and you've put it in and it created those invisible triggers, which you can't always ide why they're there. But something about music for the Samoan team actually brings people up, creates something different, which it may not for others, which I think is awesome. And the other thing which I loved was that that connection with the Spanish coach afterwards, this goes back to our first point, just that little interaction around, oh, what we're playing music for, then that discussion piece, and you pick up on a few things and you go, Oh, that's good that it did that. And he picks up on a few things as well because he's going, hmm, I see what they did to us. And then there's a mutual learning there. And now both sets of coaches have got a little bit of coaching gold nuggets, and I think that is the value of those open shared conversations post-games, which a lot of coaches forget about or miss out on. Then they stay in their own little bubble niche and think they've got to protect and hide all the little nuances they they do.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yeah, 100%. And um whether it's over a beer or a glass of wine or or a uh or a soft drink, it didn't really matter, you know. But uh like you say, it's just finding that opportunity to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Uh well We had one mate where we well we we actually wanted to change the the culture of uh a team we were once with and we around the alcohol drinking afterwards. So we we said the culture is now kibbut. So if you want a kibbutza after a game, because that's the ultimate fermented culture, then that th that was something a little bit different and quirky which we once put in, which I thought was excellent.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Yeah. Yeah, and I think you you know that Japan, like you say, you you've worked in Japan, the discipline piece in Japan

Defining Culture Under Pressure

SPEAKER_00 17:05

as a culture is really prevalent. So it's kind of how you work with that. In China with the women's Olympic team, you know, that was very much uh a dic dictorial kind of environment. So it's kinda how you work in that. And I think that's what I really enjoyed is trying to go into these different environments and just actually adapt and adjust myself and and my approach. But ultimately, with the always the cornerstone of knowing that you coach the hum like the human beings ultimately.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

You kind of coach the human the human What's changed most from your coaching, from doing all these different teams? What's what's something which has shifted in you from say the the start to the finish or to the present?

SPEAKER_00 17:43

I think I've certainly been able to be really clear on what it looks like for me as w as part of system, what I'm delivering, how I deliver it is very all over the place, really, to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

In a way of, you know, like I'll I'll try all different things in in how I deliver a message. I definitely know that I'm very aware of just because I've experienced good, great, doesn't mean that it's gonna work in the in the environment that I step into. So you have to be able to adjust and take what you've learnt and tweak things and you alluded to earlier on, like going say in taking one environment and go into another one and going, This is is how you do it. It's it it's not necessarily gonna work that way. So I think you've got to be able to be I would say to sum it up, I would say you I think you have to be strong in your principles but flexible in your thinking.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Strong in your principles and flexible in your thinking. So that means you have your your guiding lights, which you are very strong in, but yeah there's a little bit of flex.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's from that's kind of been my approach as a coach as well. You know, like I'm my principles, I I know who I am and what I'm about and how I'm trying to do things and what I'm trying to be every day, and then you're trying to kind of guide like your guiding principles, so to speak. So that guides you, but to be flexible and you think in in how you approach it, really.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Yeah. Well, I think like you s referenced before, under pressure, that's when that's when your principles take over, like your ethics and your morals and doing the right thing at the right time. And that's important under particularly under pressure and on those, you know, shitty days. But in the rest of the time, being flexible and open to to difference and uh different perspectives and things that could move the boat faster. And and if you're not flexible in your thinking, you become a little bit rigid and you become quickly become a dinosaur. And dinosaurs are pretty stiff in the tendons and they ultimately become extinct.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

That's exactly right. That goes to a lot of the coaches who have learnt off of of kind of been like that, you know, like they've been flexible and they think in enough to change and adapt and recreate. And yeah, it's uh it's a it's a a very s strong character trait, I think, to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Well, just just reflecting on that, mate, being around some of the best coaches in the world, you were the analyst for the All Blacks for nine years, and you watch some of the best coaches in the world every day. What did what do they do that probably you know the public don't see or what did you take out of that experience being being aside, you know, for that successful period of two World Cup ones, what'd you take out of that, mate, from those coaches that were coaching at that time?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Well honestly, so much it it was like it was like accelerated learning for me every day, you know, because I I was curious enough to be able to sit down and ask questions and really want to try and see how they saw the game from their lens so I could try and be proactive with the the information that I would be able to provide with them. But I think clarity is one thing. You know, like they were they created the clarity, they were able to make complex simple, and they were really curious.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Is that right? Is that is that a big trait for like obviously they're the best in the world at the time, and you're still saying they're still curious?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah, I think so. And like I'll give you some examples like you know Mike Cron, like Cron, I would go to Ballet and learn about lifting, and Mick was uh really, really broad across the spectrum from his AFL experience, and he'd been to he'd been in league, so his experience he could draw from. Those are kind of the you know, the the so so th those are the kind of the that that's that's the guys in the background. Well not in the background, but you know what I mean? Like there was that's that's without mentioning the Smithies and the Steves and the Grahams and the Fozzies and the you know the without mentioning those kind of guys. So I think, yeah, I I I think Curiosity is a constant high performance. I think and I think it's something that I've still managed to be able to do recently. Came back from overseas and I spent a month with a free rep freestyle wrestling, American freestyle wrestling champion. I spent a month.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Please tell me it was someone like um Hulk Hogan from the eighties or the Ultimate Warrior, someone like that.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

No, no, no, not not it was actually like you know those uh the in-American wrestling with the the college wrestling with the leather the leather caps and uh the Greco-Roman ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I spent a month. I went every once a week for a month and we he didn't know anything about rugby. He was a great guy, didn't know anything about rugby, but I'd sit there with some clips of the game and ask him, how would you solve this? And we'd just even an old guy like me would just literally kind of try and figure stuff out on a mat. Well, you could try this, you could try that. Yeah, maybe that worked, or that's not gonna work. Oh, actually, this is really cool. Let's write it down, you know. So that's probably one of the the the curiosity pieces. I think it is it's really kind of I've I've kept that going. I've really kept onto that. Um and and the creation of clarity, I think, as well. They were they they create I reckon curiosity and clarity are competitive advantages.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Yeah, I couldn't agree

Fun As A Performance Lever

SPEAKER_01 23:05

more. And there's there's often there's often a trait amongst coaches, because you feel like you need to say a lot because you're a coach. And often you can make something which should be simple, super complex, like put your hands here, this finger goes here, your knee should be this angle, this leg forward, this hand up, all these little things. And I remember having coached with Steve Hanson for a number of years. Sometimes I remember him saying is like, don't worry about where your leg is or your hand is, just catch and run forward. Just get them doing that well. And and don't worry about these little details. And yeah, coming from a guy like him, it was actually awesome. And then you could see when you just said, fellas, whatever's most comfortable, do that. All I want you to do is run forward and catch. And don't worry what hand and all this erroneous detail, which ultimately didn't seem didn't have a high impact thing, and all sometimes Chuck in more detail did was actually made the person think and not do the thing you actually wanted them to do, which was run forward and catch.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Yeah, and that's what I mean, there's booty and simplicity as my you know, like and Steve, it's a great example of Steve. It's like like I I I find a lot of time I I'm trying to probably get the athlete out of their own way a lot of the time to try and strip it back so that they're not thinking about where their hands are, where they the angle uh of their knee or the like you say is the shoulder or you know, like those are you want those to be Habitual and you want to train them for sure, but ultimately then when it comes down to a certain point, it's just like, hey mate, just go and tackle.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

But do you think you have to actually give up that sort of level of safety as a coach that just go do it their way or back, yeah? This is what I want. You almost have to keep that like super simple, that complexity simple. You're just going, I just want to do that. Just do that, and that's fine by me. If you make mistakes, it's on me. You just go do that point. And then that creates that belief in you and trust. And the worst thing you can do as a coach is then you tell them that and then they do it, and something goes wrong, and you go, Oi, you need to put that and you double back, or you say something little, and then they go, right, that's the last time I'm listening to him about what he says.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yes. And I think that's like like Steve is another great, he's a great example of that, isn't he? Like he would be able to strip it right back to be able to go ultimately where what do you need to do? You need to go forward. That's what you're trying to do. So go forward. However you do it, go forward. It's a great example, isn't it? It's a great example. You know, like and I find that currently when I chat to a lot of coaches or young coaches, especially like from an attack perspective perspective, as an example, like we the coach shape, like it's one, three, three, one, and we're gonna do this, and the guys are the back door and the guy's doing this. Yeah, but is your ball carrier going forward or are you going backwards? Yeah. What's your clean uh are you creating quick ball? Are you creating slow ball? Like, are you going forward? Oh no, we're not. Because you're worried about the shape, but you're actually not doing one of the foundational principles, which is go forward.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Yeah, yeah. You see it sometimes in uh in teams that you can tell the coaches have been like pressing the shape and you need to be in the right position if you're wearing this number on your back, you've got to be here and you've got to be standing this far away from the 15-meter line, and then you see a line break. And instead of everybody like hoofing to try and get the ball to score tries, everyone's talking to each other, trying to make sure everyone's in the right position, set up for the shape. And you almost want to say, fellas, when there's a try on there, if if anyone had just looked up and ran, you would have scored. But everyone's too preoccupied with the shape that's been drilled in that you're missing these opportunities. And so there is a balance, isn't there? Well, while structure can be amazing skeleton that you can pack some meat onto, you never want it to be a point where that becomes the thing that your mind is thinking about. So the point of a shape is you can have confidence in running forward and going hard and making line breaks and scoring tries. That's what it's for. And if you're not doing those things, then you might as well not have the shape.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Yeah. And I think like I would say those kind of guys that we're talking about, like, they're probably masters of the fundamentals, aren't they? Yes. Uh it's probably something that, you know, may maybe we have gone away from, but mastering the fundamentals of what of the game.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Yeah. You would think that'd be a prerequisite if you're coaching up that level, you've got to have a pretty good understanding of some of the Because of if you think, like, especially at that level, like there's so much, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 27:17

There's so much noise, but they have the ability to separate the noise from the signal.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Ooh, yeah. Separating the noise from the signal.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

What's what's the reference there?

SPEAKER_00 27:27

So the noises around, like, the there's a lot of things around the game, there's a lot of external, you know, like people's opinions, people that but they ultimately are really clear on the game that they want to play and what they need to do in order to be able to execute to do it under pressure. And then it's about trying to get it, with the is trying to then have that piece of making the complicated simple enough to be able to just execute, go and have fun and enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Mate, I love that. I think that's massive for coaches because at at any level, to be able to separate the noise from the actual signal and and have it so much that that erroneous stuff, the stuff that doesn't really matter, other people's opinions and things like that, is like water off a duck's back. And it doesn't it doesn't get into your mind. And the very best coaches are able to do that. I've seen some some of the coaches we've had on this podcast have been under attack in the media, and when you watch them in the training field, you wouldn't know. They're they they just front up, they do their stuff, they know what they're trying to do, and they keep going, regardless of all this other stuff. Um, I think most people, when you feel that pressure, it has the ability to change you, right? I know certainly in in my youth youth as a coach that when that the media scrutiny started like you know getting into you about the results pot potentially weren't where they needed to be, etc., you felt it and you're like, do I need to change? And then that's where you come back to what you talked about is strong in your principles. Strong in your principles. If that's the way you believe it's meant to be done, then stick with it and and just be flexible in the the thinking uh around it.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Now, mate, you you were in analysis for a long time and a good one too, mate. And then you transitioned to uh the the coaching side, well, you'd always done it, but then at a big scale, you know, where you went to super RB teams. What is what were some of the big differences between analyzing the game and then actually stepping in and influencing it? And for and this is a good one probably for a lot of people that are probably going in the same same trajectory as you, starting in that sort of role and ultimately trying to progress to a coach.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Yeah, I mean, it's it it's it's I I pause because it is just a really good question, you know? Like I never really thought about it, to be fair, because when you live it, you don't really think about it. But um because I was coached before I was an analyst. So I kind of always had that lens, a coach's lens on how I analy when I analyzed, I think. So maybe that was a point of difference for me to be able to have that, you know, to be able to think about it as a what what am I looking at? Um measuring performance. Whereas I'm measuring performance, I'm I'm trying to influence, I guess, for a better for a better way. If it's live analysis, you're trying to influence performance. You're looking at data, you have an ability to understand what the data means. But then we when when but then ultimately when you're coaching, the data is the data is part of a picture, isn't it? You know, it's like there's always you you always uh have to have the context behind it.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Do you not think as a as a as a rule analysts don't always put their context into there, but coaches do?

SPEAKER_00 30:41

I would say so. Yeah. I think that's the that's probably a little bit of a difference from where where I kind of came from. Like I say, the lens, I always had it, the lens of okay, how is this gonna kind of help change behavior? These numbers, uh like but but understanding what good looks like or what a benchmark figure looks like, and then you can be able to see whether you're above it or below it. You know? So you're cause because with the coach, you're you're obviously trying to change that behavior with the with as an analyst. You're trying to find what's influencing it and trying to find little bits of nugget and bits of solutions. But actually it ends when you hand it over to the coach, you've got to kind of have it's a it's almost like a different skill set. Yeah, it is but uh but but I think again, from my perspective, even as an analyst, I was always trying to build trust with players, build relationships with players, contribute to the environment as best I could, you know, like because knowledge is one thing, but actually applying it is the other is is what's important, isn't it? You know?

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Like That's right.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

So so I never wanted to be someone who would just give information and just go, oh, there you go. Because the nature of that role in that environment, people would start to be curious and go, what what why is this? And I'd go, you know, I'd seen other analysts who just hand over the data and go, oh, that's there you go, my job's done. But I wanted to try and help them piece together parts of the jigsaw so that they could solve the puzzle, basically. So that's why I spent a lot of time with them, understanding how they looked at the game, what lens they looked at the game through, and then I could try and be as proactive as I could in the information that I would be able to give them. So it was meaningful and and maybe challenging in a way, you know, or or or not challenging, but but maybe maybe change a little bit of their thinking, you know, with with some data. Or have you seen this? This is what I've seen, this is a a trend that's appearing, and then ultimately they have to make the decision of whether they want to do something with it or whether it it's not, you know. So I guess that's was a skill that I I really managed to hone in on is what's important, what's not important, you know, from that process.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

That that's a real interesting one, isn't it? Like that that uh dissemination of what

Strong Principles With Flexible Thinking

SPEAKER_01 33:05

is important and what's just noise essentially. Yeah. Well well, what's the one like uh just before that, mate? You got me thinking too, because one of my favorite scenes was uh I always remembered analysts on a Monday morning when all the stats came out in the pro teams, and you would have players lined up to argue around tackle efficiency. Like a lot of the teams do the old, you know, dominant tackle versus neutral versus ineffective, those sort of ones. And then on a Monday morning or Sunday night, you would get your your run sheet of you know 20 tackles, 16 were at neutral, and then there'd be a line out the door of the analysis room in Monday, and the players debating whether this was neutral or this was effective, and they say, Wow, and I'd put the context in it from the analyst, and the analyst would just have to say, Look, I'm not doing the context. I just saw an ineffective tackle of Mark that as that, and then the player would be like, Yeah, but you've got to take into account that wasn't my tackle, and I was just the assist tackler, and and but then these debates would go back and forth because ultimately, and this is a probably a a crux, those players knew the coaches would be looking at those, and then the worry would be they would be making assumptions based on just the numbers, whereas the coach had to probably relay to the players that I see that that wasn't your tackle, and that was an assist tackle, and I understand that that's why that's a negative grade there, and so bear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

You did right that because it's yeah, it it's for me the it's just it's an indicator, isn't it? It's kind of like you're looking at you're looking at a number and you go, Oh, that's that's a interesting number. I think this person could be should be above that. Why? What's the context behind it?

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

You know, now I want to look at it's a it's it's an awesome one. Like for me, you know, around as you said, let's take a quality of the tackle stat, you know? Like if if the quality of the tackle stat is lower than I would expect from a player, first question I ask is, How can I help him? What has he done in the week to be able to improve? Like what's his processes, and then have that conversation. How can I help you? Like, are you actually spending time on this? Is this something that you've got in your plan for the week? If it has, have I missed something? Have I so I always look at myself for us before I even have that conversation with them? It's like, wait, but again, it's always uh it's just a conversation starter.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yes, analysis is just a conversation starter. Yes. That's a great phrase, isn't it? Like if you take if as a coach is you take it like that, as opposed to like a hard line like you made 15 neutral tackles unacceptable. Yeah. If you f reframe it like, hey buddy, just notice you you're averaging, you know, the in the orange zone um for the last four games. What's your what's your context there?

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

And then you might find out something like, Oh yeah, my shoulder's actually uh I'm trying to keep it hidden that I've got a bad AC. And yeah, I know if I put a full hit on that shoulder, I'm gonna blow it out completely. So I've just been making sure completion's happening, not dominance. Just to make sure I'm not letting the team down. And yeah, yeah. Then it changes everything, right? Like and that's the skill of a coach to have it as a conversation starter. Use your analysis as conversation starters.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

I reckon.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Mate is conversation starters, mate. Well I think this is this is part of a big part of culture too. Like conversation starters and and analysis is a good one, but you could argue it's mate, conversate c starting conversations is is probably great all round as a as a coach. That's what you want.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Yeah, I think it's and and you know, like we we went we started a way of and I still do it really. Traffic lights. Traffic lights are a really good indicator, aren't they? So if if an athlete um from a skill perspective, let's take a skill as an example, so say say he's working on Stackle Um and as a review online, he would just do for like I'd create an online spreadsheet and they'd come on their phone and just go, it was orange, red, or green. Okay, so if it's a green, then it's great. It's like uh if and I think it's a green and he thinks it's a green, then it's a corridor conversation. It could be, hey, keep it going. Awesome. You're on fire. Or if if if I think it's uh if he thinks it's a a red and I think it's a green, hey, what what's what's going on? You know, again, it's it just those indicators allow you to start a conversation. If he's red and I think he's red, we need probably need a one-on-one and we can sit down and have a chat. To have that conversation.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Mate, I I think this is quite special, especially for coaches that don't have an analysis and don't have this. Like this is almost a really simplified way of reviewing a game. It is like as a coach, one to fifteen, you just say it's the tackling, you just say what your gut feel is how someone tackled, and a five being they were pretty great, versus one terrible. Now, if you just went through your team like that just by yourself, and then you did that, and then you did what you said, and you got the players to just rate themselves as well, and then you just match those up. And that's really a simplistic way of doing it, but what it's highlighting is a general feel. So if they feel like they tackled well and you uh you agree, corridor conversation. But where the difference is, if you think they were horrendous and they think they were awesome, now you've got a conversation starter. Now it's actually a nice piece of data, even though it's subjective data, to say, hey, hey, I just noticed you put down a five, and I've would you like to know what I've given you? Yes, I would. Do you want me to be honest? Yes, a one. Really? Why? Well, X, Y, and Z, let's maybe go look at the clips or let's talk about this and create this. Because there's when there's a difference like that, that is an important piece because there's something else missing, right? And yeah. There might be a lot of context in that which you as a coach have to get to the bottom of.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Yeah. Yeah, because you're trying to get that alignment piece, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

You know? Obviously green and green. Obviously, you're aligned. But if it's a green and a red, then one of us is not not aligned. So we need to get aligned. And it's always coming from that part of Well, I'm here to help you. I'm here to uh see you reach your potential, here to reach to help you reach your potentials. So I was coming from a place of service, I think.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Yeah. Well, one of the most interesting analysis pieces that I s have done and saw done was analysing effort through data. And because often effort is an interesting one, right? How do you measure that? But a a team that I had a bit to do with were analyzing things like every time a ball's kicked, they measure the first five steps of every player on the field. And that took a lot, so that's a full-time job, right? But it was really fascinating, and they actually came up with like you got a number ultimately at the end of how many of those steps were forward, neutral, or back. And that was their analyst uh like working out like a measure for effort on a kick, and they really prioritised the kick chase. And so they wanted people to know where you ranked, where you sat, how many forward steps versus sideways versus neutral. And I love that concept about measuring effort because that's one, again, if you were to do that traffic light system, would would probably highlight a lot of contextual difference where how if you didn't have that and you just were asking players on a one-to-five how good was your effort on a kick chase, and they said five, and you went, Oh, I've got yours of one, where's the d the differential on that effort piece rather than uh something else? I think it's cool too, right? Have you done a bit of that stuff?

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, pro teams now these days marry the GPS with the video, you know, like so they can actually see the pace, how the speed of running and link it to the video, which is yeah, it's good. It's how how good's that? Like there's I think when um when I was playing, I used to kind of hold people down on top of me so I could so I could have a breather, you know, like you certainly can't do that now. No. But I could say if if if if it goes back to you actually again as a coach, what are you about? If you're about effort, measure it. If you're about things that take don't take talent that are hard to measure, try and measure it. Like so you can try and measure the things that are really important to your game, and then you're able to have conversations about those things with a bit of evidence.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Do you think as a general rule, when coaches use analysis, they do way too much and that you should really just pick the one or two or three things which are really important to you, and then just do those? Because often you see when analysis comes into a team, you get a whole sheet or two or three, and they're just pages of data, and it doesn't necessarily reflect what's important to you.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

I reckon you I reckon you bang on like I think the art parts of the art of coaching is to give the athlete everything they need and nothing they don't.

SPEAKER_03 42:13

Love that.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

I reckon that's really important, you know. Like to can you give them everything they need and nothing they don't? So what is that like when I say that, it's like what does that conjure up in my mind? It can conjure up I need to build a relationship to find out what they need. I need to know what I need, so I need the clarity piece of actually what does good look like? What am I actually wanting them to do? So they can go ahead. I can teach them to be able to go ahead and do it. And then how can I measure it? I'll give you a great example, right? With one which I've been pondering over recently, is let's say, say defensively, a team, teams talk about getting the ball back. But how many teams actually measure getting the ball back?

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Yeah, like a jackal turnover.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

In any way of shape or form of trying to get the ball back. But but if that's if if that's your defensive if that if that's what you're trying to achieve from it, because I hear it a lot. Oh, well, what are you trying to do? Oh, we're trying to get the ball back, and you go, oh, okay, cool. But then no one references it at all through the through the week or through the through the stats. Or it's just like, okay, but if that's your what you're trying to achieve, measure it. If it's important to you. That's an example of no, you need to not think about other things that are maybe less important to you. If that's important to you, measure it.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

And I would say even to to go along with it, you need to train it too. Like if a priority on the stats train it. If Joe Bloggs came and watched your training and you're and he can say, wow, that's a real focus

Clarity Wins And Complexity Loses

SPEAKER_01 43:35

of it, because look how much jackaling they're doing, for example. That's clearly something which they're putting emphasis on. Oh yeah. And the analysis would reflect that. That's number one on the sheet that comes out. This is how we succeeded or not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

But that's probably one of those measure it training.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Yeah. I do notice the ones like um that I went through a lot, there was a lot of stats like dominant tackles and how many you got. But in my most teams that measured that, I never, like I having experienced as a players, I never got taught how to do a dominant tackle. Like the tackle technique stuff was very generic, but a dominant tackle is a very different sort of tackle. And if you unless you're practicing that specific technique of trying to get a dominant tackle, then what's the point of measuring a dominant tackle? Because you it's like it's just saying something for saying something's focused, right? Or point.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And like on attack. So teams would maybe, if you're lucky, you could if you've got access to it, if it's a professional team, as a as a as a team, you'd get a figure of gain line stat and ball ball speed stat, LQB, we call it, or gain line. But as an individual, in a lot of cases, that's not measured. Okay, so as an individual, how many times did you carry? How many times did you get over the game line as an individual?

SPEAKER_01 45:01

You mean that's normally a team stat? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Yes, and usually a team stat. But for me, it's massively individual as well. Because if I can see someone's b had a lot of ball carriers and hasn't got over the game line, what do you think he needs to work on from an attack perspective?

SPEAKER_03 45:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Working maybe for and then it's again, it's a conversation starter, isn't it? Let's have a look at your carries. You are getting over the game line, so you've got good leg drive. If you're getting over the game line and you're not creating quick ball, okay, now that separates your ball carry from your ball placement. So you need to work on your ball placement because your carry is really good. You're getting early, you're running onto the ball, you've got good running line, you've got good leg drive, and then you're falling on your shoulder and they get you're getting turned over, as an example. But they they're correlated. Does that make sense? It does. So it's just being able to, again, I guess, think about what's important to you, and then measure it and try and get a conversation from it.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Well, there's there's also the piece in this, which I think is is a an important analysis piece too, is just because there's a team stat, like, there's a lot of context in that too. Like you can say, look, we were horrendous with our discipline and our penalties, and you can scatter gun the whole team. But then if you actually look at and go, Well, little Jimmy over there gave away nine penalties. So Yeah, that's a contextual thing. Now, if he did that, the rest if we take him out, the rest of the team's actually fine. And yet as a coach, we've scatter gunned everybody and everyone's like, oh geez, I thought okay, we're shit disciplined. But actually, it's just one bloke. And you sort that one guy out, and then it's a whole different thing. And sometimes you can tell a narrative to align with the stats, because the stats say we were poorly disciplined. But the context is it was just one fella. And and when you look at that, they were all scrum penalties because he was again dominating the scrum. So you know, th then you start you know, it's a different story, it's a different conversation starter. And I might just be right, we need to work on, you know, this guy's strength or his ability to bore in a bit better or be a bit subtler when he collapses a scrum, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Yeah, and it's like you say, that that ability to be able to go from the team then numbers to the individual numbers. So a gang line overall as a team from from my previous example may be really good. But when you look at the individual game line carries, there may be one or two players who aren't very good. So that's a that's it, that's a work on for them. So yeah, it's it's it's it's how you kind of look at your game, how you measure your game, and then how you actually train it. I think that's that's the kind of the cycle, isn't it, really? And I I guess I was pretty lucky to be involved in those whole processes. So now as a coach, that's I guess my process is like I look at the numbers, that's high, that's low, or go and have a look, why?

unknown 47:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

And then and then put a plan together, and then how do I train it? What does it look like to the week so we can train it to get better?

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Like a scientist, right? Like looking at the the results of an experiment and and and hypothesizing.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

I don't know. If I was a scientist, I'd probably end up blowing up the lab.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Well, talking about blowing up labs, have you ever blown up one? Like have you ever had any shockers like where you'd uh you go, geez, I'd love to take that back, that presentation or that that stats page. Anything that that you look back on and go, probably do that different.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Do you know I think as I say, for me, I I I'm I there's a book, I can't remember who the author was. And uh again, I I f I'll I'll credit Wayne Smith, not not me, but he mentioned a book called Make It Stick. So I thought, oh so I read that and I was like, Make it stick, so it's about ideas and how they how people kind of absorb them and you know how they learn from them. And I thought, oh me. So I've always got that in the back of my mind. So when I when I present, I'm thinking about two things really. What the most important? What are they key things that I need them to walk away with? And how do I want to make them feel? Those are kind of the two things. Like, do I want them to leave a meeting feeling really excited, clear, energized, or do I need to create an edge because just our standards are dropped? So those that's kind of how I set how I kind of go through that process. Um and then one year, one year, I decided to theme the week by Death by a Thousand Cuts. And um, even just probably having that visual in your head as to some of the pictures that I chose were on reflection. Well, as soon as I left the meeting when I saw how pale some of the guys had gone, and the players came out going, Oh, there's too much out.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Did you go down the 1970s horror movie? No.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

No, no, I I went down the the original Death by a Thousand Cuts purpose behind it and what it meant, how how it was done, and I managed to show some kind of visuals of it. Yeah, yeah. So I I I think that one comes to mind. The other one, which was a massive learning for me, was we were in the World Cup and I used some we'd we were really good in New Zealand rugby in my time. Myself, when Smith and the guy got Ken Quarry, we'd kind of created this KPIs, you know, where do you remember those KPIs we used to have where basically our data provider would pump all our information into an analytics, a data center, really, which which would create all these graphs and and then we'd be able to kind of select from those graphs, or you could you could select who was top in top in certain you know in their positions and things like that. One of the teams um I actually used at it was in it was in the World Cup. Wasn't was yeah, it was with Samuel in the World Cup, and one of the players was after two games was right on top. Really good. He was like top of the top of the top, you know. And for

Using Analysis To Start Conversations

SPEAKER_00 51:05

for him to see that, I thought would be really cool, you know. Like, mate, you're on fire at the moment. Look at this. I just wanted to show you this. This is where you sit amongst the World Cup and where you're at. But I probably didn't have I didn't realise the adverse effect of them that he'd probably created a bit of pressure amongst himself to try and keep it that way and try to force things. You know?

SPEAKER_01 51:30

And it didn't go well?

SPEAKER_00 51:32

Didn't go well, yeah. It's his kind of performance started to go like that. And I often kind of wondered, well, yeah, I I definitely think that I I would have contributed to that in a way of showing them those stats and thinking, but it was never coming from a place of anything other than the intention of trying to build his confidence by how how well he was doing. But obviously how he kind of looked at it and the lens that he had on it, it kind of flipped it around to oh shit, I'm what do I need to do to stay there? And then started forcing things and things started to go a little bit kind of um not as well as expected, and then the performance started to dip. So massive learning for me. Massive. Yeah. And I think that's probably again a reflection of did I spend enough time to get to really know him to understand what information he could receive, how he would receive it. And not just assume that I'm gonna show him something that's really good. He's gonna take it that it's really good, you know? Or they are as as an athlete. Because they may have they may have a negative slant on things and they may may have other things going on, which anxieties, which you know, you just don't know.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:44

So I yeah, I had a big I had a big learning from that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

And and now you've helped uh a thousand coaches not walk down that same line before they show a a stats page to it. Well hopefully. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

I mean, yeah, hopefully, yeah, you know, like I say, you you have put context to it. Uh take time to understand the the person who you're talking to and what and what kind of makes them tech and then try and shape shape that feedback be the it's always gonna come from the pace of growth, you know? Coach the human first, people first mate. That's what I try to do.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

Coach the human first. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

And that's where the the conversation started. That's what sort of this sort of stuff it does when you have that open conversation, but you're coaching a human. And just just as a side mate, when you talked about I've I've got a little uh thing which Joe Schmidt talked about the other day when I was chatting to him, and he referenced what you talked about, the make it stick factor. And as an ex-English teacher, we were having a discussion about how you make your language stick, and I think this is this is a nice little pickup for coaches, is he talked about the using the English language to better of yourself like poets and songwriters do. And he just talked about things like alliteration, have things start with the same letter. But when you're talking about and he and he he uses the when he wants players to fall on the ball and then present long, he would just call it body ball, meaning fall on your body and then get the ball back. And he'll just say body ball because it's a familiar phrasing. And I just thought that was that was really fantastic. And I just thought it was just such a simple little analogy, uh thing you can do as a coach. The other one he said was using the power of rhyme, like tackle technique might be drive for five. And it just flows off the tongue nice, it's memorable, it sticks in people's minds, and it it it it's so much easier to coach. You don't have to explain, I want you to take four steps and or five steps and and put your shoulder here, it's just drive for five. And it flows off nice, and it's almost like a a melody, and it sticks better in minds. So I just thought there was a a relevant thing in the context you were talking about too for coaches to think about.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

I think it's really cool you've got an opportunity to be able to do that. Yeah, I've done so many different things in presentations. I brought in 30 kg live pythons.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Mate, did you not learn from the thousand paper c paper cuts around?

SPEAKER_00 55:10

I actually bought the Python in before before the cuts. Um But these are the one, to be fair, like I know the cuts was a bit a bit brutal, but they actually remembered it. So it did stick.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

Mate, yeah, it stuck. And and and and some of those players are probably scarred for life and they'll tell their kids about. Remember this time 30 years ago when my when I had a coach Al Rogers and he showed this horrendous cutting on a on a b on a body in a team meeting in a rugby game. Mate, I don't even want to ask what the Python was about, mate.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

Like Well, we tried to I wanted to use the analogy of kind of the stranglation of a Python. Um, you know, what it felt like and how constricted it was and how so yeah, I managed to try and get one and bought in, brought that in. Um I tried to when we were in Japan, I felt like our players were watching. They were spectators more than actually engaged in the game. So when the ball was over the other side of the field, they kind of just watched what was going on rather than you know kind of get into their own space and look up what's next. So the difference that for me was the difference of being proactive and reactive. So I was like, well, what spectators are you're just a spectator in a sport or you're just watching the movies. The night before I went to the movie theatre, I bought a massive bucket of popcorn and then I brought it into the meeting the following morning and sat down, played music as if we were in the movie theatre, and then asked guys whether they were watching, and then I'd start to flick popcorn at them because we were, you know, we were I'd try just try to get them to understand the their habits were watching rather than how can we change their habits or raise awareness of it. And then I'd print out movie theatre tickets and give them movie theatre tickets on on entry into the meetings, and then I wouldn't I wouldn't say anything for a couple of weeks. I'd let I'd let it lie, but I'd subtly then keep those movie theatre tickets and go and put them in their locker so that if they receive the movie ticket, they know that they work they'd switched off and they weren't working hard enough, you know, that they were spectators.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

An ongoing theme. Did it work? Do you reckon it worked in reflection? Did it Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

I mean, you're you're ultimately what what are you trying to do? You're just trying to raise awareness, isn't it? Like you're trying to raise awareness, and that's what coaching isn't it? You raise awareness and you try and get a behavior change.

SPEAKER_01 57:27

Yeah, and to go back to what you're um you're trying to what think about what they want to feel as well as yeah, what they think.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

Yeah, and it's like then again, it goes back then to do they know what they're doing? If if they don't know what they're doing, then I need to be I need to help them. I need to I need to be able to the model that I use I have going through my head the whole time is I forget who it's with or who created it, but it's like it's it's e education. So you you you what you educate them first, and then you see them apply it. So it's education, application, and support. And I think it's a constant cycle that you're always trying to do. So you're trying to educate them, then you're watch them apply it. It's just it's a teaching model, and then you you support that. Do they need to, you know, support them in in that in that journey? And maybe that you need to go back and educate them again, and then you need to watch them apply it and then you support it. So it's like continuously in that loop, really.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

I love it, mate. Educate, application, education. Education and support. Nice little triangle. Now, Al, we've got to that time, mate, where it always flies by. And we've got one more question. It's this one. What is one coaching belief you hold today that you reckon a younger version of yourself would have argued or disagreed with?

SPEAKER_00 58:46

I think certainly the younger analyst would have believed that knowledge was everything, and performance came from knowledge, really like so flood, maybe a lot of detail, a lot of information, trying to kind of put those things across. Whereas probably today I'd say performance comes from, you know, environment, behavior, because the environment shapes behavior, behavior shaped decisions, decisions shape performance. Yeah. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 59:14

It does, mate.

Making Messages Stick Without Scaring Players

SPEAKER_00 59:15

And I think knowledge matters. Without doubt, knowledge matters. Knowledge is it's everything, but it's it's always it's always when you apply it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 59:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

Like what's the old Bruce Lee thing is not knowing is not enough. We must apply. So knowledge is one thing for sure.

SPEAKER_01 59:31

Well, if you if you're if you know how to make money but you do nothing about it, then you can make any money.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that I've actually you talk about culture and you talk about those, you know, those kind of areas. I reckon the environment is like I've seen I've seen how powerful it is when you create good environments and really allow people to thrive in the environments. I think that it's trying to create the right environment. And it may be, you know, like it's uh you the balance of fun stimulation and learning. That's kind of how I would try and we used to use that framework. And I'm I still think that it's really relevant today because the environment, obviously, as you say, it shapes behaviour. And then your behavior shaping your decisions, I reckon. We we to we we we took when we were in China when I worked with the uh the Olympic team there, Sean, Sean Horan, who was X Museum Sevens, you and McIntosh who was now skills with the old blacks like they were really good coaches, and to be able to take the girls out of China in that environment and bring them to New Zealand and see them flourish in a short space of time was amazing. It was probably one of the most rewarding things that I've witnessed. Just to be able to create the right environment and let people kind of be comfortable enough in it to be able and and to grow into reckon um that's why I say environment. I've I've seen that firsthand many, many times. Environment is whereas previously I probably thought it was knowledge was was single factor, maybe. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

It does, mate, mate. And I and as much as that question where I think most people would w would agree with that too. And certainly the lifespan of a coach, I think that is the natural progression of any coaches is you over place importance on the X's and O's. And as you start to get in teams and become more experienced, you realize that those X's and O's are very important, but they can be magnified and superfied with environmental factors and context and connection with people, especially in a sport such as rugby, which is a very chaotic and open sort of sport.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

Now, Al, what a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast. If I may, I'd like to just summise my three points that I got from this awesome conversation, mate. And they are these. Number one, we started this conversation about the importance of being open as coaches, sharing what you know and not being afraid to ask other coaches, particularly around what they're doing and why. And one of the key times you can do this is actually on a field after a game to the other coach, chew the fat for five minutes like you would an old friend. And not only are you going to get some great coaching nuggets out of there, you're going to develop a network and relationships which will go on to be super good for you in your profession or just your enjoyment of the coaching profession. And this podcast is all about sharing. And we have world-class coaches like yourself being particularly open. And the joy for everyone listening is you grow as well. Number two, you talked about uh really important that coaches create clarity, make the complex simple, and that curiosity is the cornerstone of high performance. And I love that because it's so true. And even at the highest levels, the all blacks where you were, a big part of the psyche of a coach was that clarity. So the athlete can actually get out of their own way. You're not bogging them down with overcomplicated things. You're simplifying, simplifying, simplifying, and at the same time making them curious. And we talked later in the show about the ability to do that helps if you can make ideas stick and land with both your words and imagery that you use, excluding, of course, the thousand paper cuts and the massive Bower Constructor. And number three is this use of analysis, which you are the expert in. And reframing the use of analysis, not just as a sheet of paper, which is objective, but using it as a conversation starter and to really understand that you're coaching the human first. And all analysis is a little bit subjective. And if you use it as a conversation starter to develop rapport, trust, and better relationships, you are going to go a long way for both that player and your team. Al Rogers, what an absolute pleasure, my friend, to chat once again and on this platform. I appreciate your time as always.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

Great to see you, Ben. Look, thanks for your time. And uh let's catch up sooner.