Why So Many Good Coaches Are Struggling | The Invisible load

You can spot a coach on the sideline in seconds. What’s harder to see is everything they carry home afterward: the player who’s struggling, the conversation they should have handled better, the pressure from parents or committees, the fear of judgment, and the constant need to stay calm for everyone else. That hidden weight has a name, and once you name it, you can finally do something about it.

We’re joined by Stu Edwards, newly appointed Finland head coach and author of The Invisible Load, based on his first-class honors research into stress factors and mental health support systems for rugby union coaches. We talk about why the emotional experience of coaching looks surprisingly similar from grassroots to the professional game, and why “just be tougher” misses the real issue. Stu breaks down emotional labor, the coaching swirl that distorts your lens, and why coach wellbeing is not separate from performance but sits underneath it.

We also get practical about solutions that don’t require massive budgets: intentional support systems, clearer expectations, mentoring, peer support, and a trusted sounding board you can use before things hit crisis mode. A huge thread running through this conversation is confidentiality and psychological safety, because if coaches don’t feel safe, they won’t speak honestly and support arrives too late.

If you coach, lead, or support people who do, this one will change how you see the job. Subscribe, share this with a coach who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

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Transcript

Welcome And Stu’s New Role

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Stu Edwards. He has just been appointed the Finland head coach. What an awesome team to coach. Stu was on the podcast six months ago as he was working on a research research problem through his honours degree at the University of Wales, Trinity St. Dave. And since then, he has now got a first-class honours degree because of the research, the first ever academic deep dive into stress factors and mental health support systems for rugby union coaches. And now it's complete. And his book, The Invisible Load, is out now on Amazon. And it deals with the pressure, the stress, the well-being, and sustainable coaching for rugby union coaches. And as a side, I'm privileged to actually have a little foreword in there. And this research is important for coaches of any sport and leaders of anything at all. And much like this podcast, the content is wide-ranging and cross-transferable. And today, we're just going to dive into some of those key findings from his book, The Invisible Load, which deals with all this stuff around coaching, which sometimes is hard to measure and often intangible. Stu Edwards, welcome back to the Coaching Culture podcast. Thanks for having me again, Ben.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

It's a real privilege to be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Well, mate, firstly, a quite a bit of congratulations for you. Firstly, the head coaching role of the of the Finland team. Congratulations, mate. What an absolute joy to be an international coach. It's uh it's a rare group of people that can say they've coached internationally, and you're now one of them.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Yeah, it's a bit surreal, but uh I'm very privileged to be uh given that role in uh such an amazing country. Uh looking forward to taking them forward to uh try and improve uh what all the real good work has already been uh carried out there.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Yeah, mate. I I know you've got strong links to to the land, which is awesome. On your other side of things, the bit where we're loving is this research that you're doing. You're you're now also been given this awesome first class honours degree because of it, but the research is now done. How how is that feeling, mate? You've you've spent a long time gathering the research and making something which is often considered immeasurable. You've given a bit of academic credence to it. How is the feeling now that the research is complete?

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Well, part one of the research is complete. This to be fair, it's given me such uh enthusiasm to kick on from that first question that came to my mind. Listen, this has been an incredible journey that I'm going to continue on because it's so important. And the information I've had from people so far, it's uh it's been breathtaking, and I just hope this can make some sort of impact on raising awareness and start a conversation to support building healthier and sustainable coaching environments.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Because it's it's actually it well so let's dive into it, mate. So you're the book's now done, you and you've put all that research and findings and you've made it readable, the invisible load, on Amazon right now. What what's mate, what is the invisible load of coaching in your mind?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Well, okay, so if I give you a little bit of a brief story on the book, like I said just now, we started with a question I couldn't ignore. You know, why why are so many good coaches carrying pressure, carrying that stress and responsibility that rarely gets spoken about openly? You know, um I've been I've been lucky enough to be around some really good coaching environments uh from community to performance-based settings. Uh, and you notice that the role of the coach is far bigger than what people see on the sideline. Um, you know, I think how can we say this? The the people see the session plan, they see the team talk, the selection, the match decisions, and the performance outcomes. But I don't really think they see, they don't see what the emotional weight is behind the role. They don't always see the coach driving home thinking about a player who's struggling. Uh they don't see the coach questioning whether they handled a difficult conversation properly. Uh they don't always see the coach trying to balance that kind of family work performance, expectations, the disappointment, pressure, and responsibility. And and that's where the book came from, in all honesty, Ben. I think what I'd really need to get across is that it's not written to kind of criticize the game. It's I'd written it to start a more honest

Defining The Invisible Load

SPEAKER_00 5:48

conversation about the people behind the performance. Um as I said just now, it says the more I researched it, the more conversations I had with coaches. It's quite clear that it became it's not just an individual issue. It's it's not simply about coaches needing to be tougher, more resilient, or better coping. I think it was more about the environments coaches are working in, about the support, about the trust, and whether coaches felt they were able to speak honestly without fear of any judgment judgment, really. So, with regards to the start of part one of my research, this book is kind of more of an awareness piece, first of all. And I think it's for me it's going to be the first stage of a wider body of work that I will continue to develop. And as the research continues to progress, my aim is not to claim that I haven't have all the answers to any of this at all, by any stretch of the imagination. My main aim is to give the language to someone, uh, something many coaches have felt perhaps they don't have uh or they haven't been able to explain. Uh and that's kind of the story behind the invisible odd.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Mate, that's awesome. I I just think that's such a such a cool concept, mate. Just the like just raising awareness. And and I like I I remember a mentor of mine once said about reading books in general, is like, when you read someone's autobiography or a research thing like this, it sometimes just solidifies something that's been bouncing around in your head. And someone else has articulated it well with good research and stuff like that. And it just you just have that moment where you just go, Oh man, this is this is exactly what's been spinning in my head and which I haven't been able to articulate myself. And someone has put it down in in in words and given me some concrete, you know, reassurance that this is not I'm not just a weirdo or uh uh losing my mind here, that it's it's something clear, right? So that's the beauty of putting something like this in a book.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah, 100%. I think it's important. So hopefully if people can get anything from it, it'd be great.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yeah, man. And and you're not mucking around with some of your guests, mate. You got the likes of Stuart Lancaster, Gary Gold, Mark Jones from the Ospreys.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Um what surprised me the most about it wasn't the coaches, you know, it wasn't the coaches didn't experience pressure. Anyone who's been involved in coach understands that there's pressure as part of that role, and it's you know, but what did surprise me was how consistent some of the themes were across the different levels of games. Because you know, you quite rightly mentioned a lot of really good names, big names there. Um, you know, to add to that, John Mitchell, but I've also gone to a lot of grassroots coaches as well. You know, uh Yem Probert at uh Ebouville, you've got Jason Strange at Ebouville as well. You know, there's loads of people out there, and the the context is unbelievable, it might change, but the emotional experience was often very similar. Now, the grass coach, uh grassroots coach might be dealing with work, family, volunteers, parents, very limited resources, as we've all been there trying to keep a club environment going. Whereas a professional or international coach uh might be dealing with contracts, selection pressure, performance scrutiny, you know, role in security, and that kind of public expectation. So the environments are very different, but the human experience of carrying responsibility, the pressure, and the emotional load was a theme, reac a strong recurring theme. But you know, the other thing that stood out was that many coaches weren't asking for sympathy. You know, they weren't they weren't they they weren't saying like feel sorry for us. They were asking for kind of understanding, they were asking for a bit

What The Research Reveals

SPEAKER_00 9:23

of trust, definitely clearer support, and they were investing they were asking for environments where they could be honest that the feeling that honesty might get used might get used against them, and I feel that that was very powerful. That was very very powerful indeed. But the one one big thing that kind of really surprised me was how often the support for these people, doesn't matter what level, from grassroots to professional, appear to be very informal, very inconsistent and reactive. So in many cases, um the support depended on who you knew, who you trusted, or whether the problem had already become serious. And that is important to be honest with you, because if support only appears when someone is already struggling, then we're waiting way too long. You know, when it comes to the research, I'm still careful of the detail because the research is still being finalized, but the overall message is clear. I I don't think the coach well-being can't be left a chance anymore. It really needs to be considered, structured, and taken seriously.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

It's it's it's uh some cool words just in there. Understanding not sympathy is what coaches want, and I I I concur with it. That's exactly right. I don't I think don't think it's the nature of a coach to want sympathy around what they're doing. But you also talk about some of this support um networks are currently informal and pretty inconsistent, which is very true. So you you're you're almost saying part of this research uh and awareness is actually for those that are providing those support sort of roles, like uh the directors of rugby's or the presidents of clubs or the chief supporter, or even the parents committee at a at a lower grade, like the the your lead parent in your support group, or the most vocal parent in a underage team, like that person actually has a more formalised role, right? Like to to be able to lend their assistance to uh to a head coach or any coach, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:19

100%, and not to come a bit negative there, there was a lot of clubs that had some really great systems in place, and a lot of people are really happy. So it's not a case of um it being all doom and gloom and everyone is is terrible everywhere, but certain clubs and certain environments and certain coaching groups hit the note quite well and they were supporting each other again by themselves, not through anything else, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Yeah. Well, it's actually fascinating just recently. We uh at one one of our games the uh the coach had a bit of a an an incident where it it sort of blew up a little bit, and the reaction was not like it was it was looking at the outcome like what the coach did rather than actually stopping going, why has that happened? Why has that blow up occurred? And no one really stopped to think, is this is this coach alright? Because that's not normal for them. And so we're critiquing the the blow up, but what we're not actually looking at and checking on is the the pressure that's mounted a mountain, mountain, and then there was a straw that broke the camel's back, and then that's the thing we're like, well, you shouldn't blow up on that. However, we don't know the background of what's led to that, and there's a lot of that stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Oh, 100%, and what we've got to remember is that this isn't an individual resilience issue. This is also a huge environmental and organizational issue. I think where you how you've expanded how you've explained that there, it all comes down to what environment and and how people are seeing each other, and is it a supportive environment, or is it people out to get themselves and look after themselves?

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Do you think part of this, because not all clubs and things will have you know that forethought to actually do that, but do you think it's part of the the coaches' role at the start of a season to

When Support Shows Up Too Late

SPEAKER_01 13:08

potentially bring this sort of awareness to the club they're at or the environment they're at to actually they take a little bit of ownership around this is the support I'm gonna need, parents or you know, fans. Do you do you reckon that's an important part?

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Yeah, I think it is, but then that comes down to a lot of themes that are coming through around the confidentiality and trust. A lot of people were afraid to bring it up because it came to them to contracts or you know, they might not agree with what the coach is asking. And some of some environments are totally different, but some environments are are really supportive. But I think we need to have a platform where people can and coaches especially can be open and honest and say, listen, this is what I expect, this is what I need. And I think we discussed it last time in the podcast that I think people need to be understanding of the situation of where the club is at the time as well, and how you're gonna are you gonna are you building that confidentiality interest? Are you are you are you building in that coach well and being to help give that performance as well? Because it comes back down to that cracking example where you've just given there is that emotional load. What is going on with that coach at that time for him to react like that? You know, because the coaches are often required to manage their own emotions while also regulating the emotions of everyone else within the team, the supporting disappointed players, they're managing conflict within players or fellow coaches that are dealing with the pressure from committees, sponsors, you know, trying to motivate staff, communicate to parents, trying to absorb that criticism, and then they still got to appear calm and composed. And one thing I've come out of it is that, and your example is fantastically comes on to a lot of coaching is emotional labour, and the coaches are constantly managing people's relationships, expectations, and pressure by managing themselves as well. Which uh, if you pour into one melting pot, that is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

I love that phrase, mate, emotional labour that coaches have to put themselves through. And I think that's such a good phrase because I good coaches are pretty empathetic people, they they're very have the ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes, which is the deep definition of an empathetic leader. However, you know, like the the the emotional toll that takes by constantly going into someone else's shoes and multiple different sets of shoes, is it starts to sink into your being a little bit, right? Like that's that's the thing of it. Like it yeah, your shoes don't fit so well anymore.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Yeah, it's true, but I think coming back onto what you were saying, I think the organizations need to kind of step up and take this issue seriously because they're expecting that person to lead a squad of 40 people, perhaps plus plus 10, 15 backroom staff. Um and bear in mind it it doesn't need a huge budget to get this. And I think organizations for for them, it starts with intentionality. I think they need to create not just from the coach, the club and the expectation need to create that space for those proper confident uh con uh conversations to happen, you know, the mentoring, the clearer role expectations, the peer support, better leadership awareness, and all that can make a difference. And and I just think that's what they need to do. It's gotta be it starts with intentionality from the organization and the environment to create that amazing culture. You said the word just earlier, confidentiality.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Why is that an important uh piece when you're talking about this wellness space for coaches?

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Because what I did understand from from a lot of the um conversations I had with these amazing coaches uh from grassroots to the professional game is that um confidentiality came up quite a lot because uh, as we well know, unfortunately things get leaked uh into um for the professional game most uh into the press about whether they're gonna be have a job or where there's a problem going on, or if it's another coach who wants uh their role. I think there's a lot of issue around people being worried to speak up because I don't think they feel they're safe. You know, some keep some people were avoiding, some coaches avoiding asking questions and asking for help because they're concerned around that judgment, you know, that selection, the reputation, how does that affect their employability, all being perceived as being unable to cope? So for me, if coaches do not trust the system around them, they're unlikely to speak honestly within it. And I think that's key. Uh if you want to go back to that phrase, that lovely phrase gets banded about we have a psychologically safe environment because where anyone can ask a question, but do they feel safe with the responses they're gonna get? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

That phrase is coming up more and more, particularly on this show too. I it's it's really becoming a strong, a strong repeating theme, isn't it? The psychological safety and not just rugby, but in all workspace environments.

Confidentiality And Psychological Safety

SPEAKER_01 18:55

I know Google did a big review and they found that was the key for the teams that they had, like psychological psychological safety and the Google Teams. That was the number one thing that the research showed that employees valued and why teams work well was when psychological safety was there. What does it mean, mate? What what like what what what is the definition of that in your eyes?

SPEAKER_00 19:20

I was gonna say, uh, because I don't know the definition up the top. I think it's just being in a safe environment and like I uh what I just said now is being able to perhaps like have a chat like we're having now, understanding and knowing whatever you're talking about, you're not gonna feel judged, you feel safe, so you can disclose that listen, this is my problems. How can you help out? Have you got any identi have any sort of uh ideas of have you been in this situation before? Can you help me some pointers? And I think that what that's what came back from a lot of coaches, and that's why there's a lot of informal support networks around there, like when I mentioned when I spoke to yourself, you deal with a small number of trusted people around you that you trust, and you can confidentially confide it in knowing that what you say isn't gonna be used against you in the future, like coming back to the concern around that judgment or the reputation. Um, so for me, it's being able to speak to someone safely without having to worry about what you're disclosing is gonna come back to either harm you or cause you problems in the future.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

I think it's uh I would go one step further, and it's it's probably in everything, right? Even if you if you take it as a coach, as a person, even like in a let's go to a marriage between husband and wife or whatever combination marriage it is, like the more psychological safety where you can tell your partner exactly how you're feeling about anything. Uh I certainly know now uh uh with my wife, the more we talk openly and say, This is how I'm feeling about this, or you said this and this is now what I'm feeling. And if there's no judgment or scorn or reaction in a negative way to whatever's said, if it's actually received like I appreciate you telling me that, it actually does wonders for a relationship when you do it right well, right? Like it if my my wife often picks me up as like just to let you know, you said this at dinner and it's made me think about this. I don't think you're meaning it like that. And I'm like, nah, not at all, but thank you for telling me that. Like I'll be more conscious around my wording next time. But when and now that you know that, now you're you're better equipped and you're you're better able to support her, and she's able to better and just the the connection piece is good there, and it's that's the psychological safety you want, where you can be pulled up and there's no problem with it. And this is the same with your research, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Yeah, 100%. 100%. I think yeah, I think you're right. I think the word I'd probably say is is having to put things across in the right context that everyone understands. So it's having that correct language, because we use it in the rugby field, right? We use it for our line of calls, our defensive strikes, our attacking strikes. It's probably the best way to say it is we've got to use the right language to make sure that we have that ability to trust each other.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Yes. And and I'll uh yeah use the right language to make sure we trust each other. And I would also maybe even tweak it's to start point, it's maybe just use your language, use your language to start with, practice just saying stuff, right? Yeah, and being brave about saying how you feel. And because as soon as you say stuff sometimes, it's like when you read a book and you go you get that moment, sometimes verbalizing it to someone, even if you're not saying in a great way, is actually a nice way of cementing your thoughts, and sometimes it goes, actually, I'm pretty good with that now. That's I just need I I just need a divent. Yeah, I just need to get it out. Mate, I guess this is the question from your research in the book, is this what we're talking about is kind of healthy coaching practice. But do you think with sort of is the research come back to sort of suggest that but potentially with normalized unhealthy coaching and and I've over like sort of uh set a level where of expectation that a coach just needs to grind and bear a little bit? And doing is that changing in modern coaching practice?

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Yeah, it's um it is changing in modern day practice, and I think like you said, uh I'm quite lucky enough to speak to have spoken to coaches from different different areas of the game, from young coaches to elder states when we've been around for a long time. Um, and you know, you got a lot of a lot of feedback around if the going got tough and I was in a bit of a bad spot or it was in a difficult period of the rugby team that you're coaching, the answer was just to work harder and just dig in, crack on instead of going right, okay. But now you got the younger coaches who are embracing a different aspect of looking at how can I do better here? It's that taking that step back and going, right. Do you know what I'm actually going to speak to someone and say, right? I'm in this, I'm in this bit of a pick a pickle here, now I'm in this spot, it's really tough. Have you got any sort of have you been in this environment before? What any sort of uh advice you can give me? Any sort of because when you're in there and you're looking at something in the face, you can't uh that old sort of saying, you can't see the woods of the trees because you just can't work out what's going on. So I think it's just having that clarity of being able to speak to people and a lot of the feedback

Moving Past Grind Culture

SPEAKER_00 24:05

has come back as uh there is a stigma still out there, there is there are some barriers around, you know, where men we've got to be tough, we've got to just grin and bear it and get on with it. But then there's the new sort of way of thinking of do you know what? No, let's let's build our support network of the right people around you. As coach one coach is uh get the right people on the bus. You know We can do a lot of stuff then to make sure that everything is you've got that support, we've got that ability to deal with what we're dealing with at that time.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah, man. I I I think that's a really important point you raised about sometimes you can't see the woods from the trees when you're in that swirl, that coaching swirl. And s say for this analogy, like you you're going down a whirlpool, you're s you're stuck in your ships going down and and and you're panicking because you you can sense yourself going down. That's where it's so important to like there's someone sitting on the island over there watching you. And if you just reach out and go, what should I do? And they they're looking at it from a very different perspective. They're they're calm, they're not emotional. They'll say, Hey mate, just put your tack your sail to the left, and that'll stare you out. And it's someone that's not in the swirl being able to add their their perspective is sometimes all you need, right? Like it's just once you're in it, that coaching swirl, which I guess is something that only coaches really know what that swirl is because you don't expect it. You talked about the people don't see the public expectation, you don't see that that emotional baggage which coaches carry because you don't know it until you're up there standing in front of 30 people and and you're getting hit with all these different things, right? So to be able to reach out to someone that you respect that's sitting on an island which is not in this world, that can see the woods from the trees, and just being able to do that more regularly and just snapping you out of that downward spiral that all coaches experience from time to time.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

And everyone I spoke to, everyone has experienced it, whether it's grassroots, you know, academies, uh semi-professional, professional, and international, everyone has experienced it, and I think we need to normalize the fact that everyone's been through it, and if you can just part that sort of little bit of a golden nugget to help someone deal with that situation, I think that's what we've got to do. This is what it all comes back to. It's like that coach well-being really affects the performance, really affects it. I mean, you know, coaches shape environments, and that's where we've got to get to. We've got all these fantastic players uh from a grassroots level who are turning up week in, week out because they want to play. Now they need they want to play because they enjoy it, and they want to have that someone that person in front of them to help them shape and enjoy that environment. And then the same when you go to like the professional environment, you know, you go in there because you've got all these amazing, if you look at some of the top French teams, they spend millions of pounds on players, and you've got that one person who's shaping their environment, just dealing with everything on his own. You know, they shape the standards, the communication, they shape the relationships, you know, they shape the emotional climate of a team, and that, like I said, comes down to a grassroots coach to the the professionals. And I think I don't know whether you can sort of uh resort of take to this as well as if a coach is constantly exhausted, isolated, and supported and emotionally overloaded, that does not stay separate from the environment, it affects how they they'll communicate, it affects how they make their decisions, how they manage conflicts, going back to the example you just gave shortly, uh short time ago, and how they respond under the pressure and how they will connect to those players. And I mean I don't think it I don't think it means that the coaches need to have a perfect sort of perfect lives or stress-free free environments because coaching will always involve that pressure. But I think how can I say this now, the difference here between healthy pressure and support uh and it's yeah, between healthy and unsupported pressure. Healthy pressure can challenge people, sharpen thinking, and kind of drive the standards a little bit more, but unsupported pressure can really wear you down, it can wear people down when coaches can be really struggled. So from the research and the chat and that so many different people, when the coaches are actually supported properly, they're able to sort of they're likely to think more clearly and communicate better. I think there's got less pressure on them to be able to regulate that emotion, build that trust. And then I think that'll create environments where players and coaches alike can thrive. And I think this is where I always come back to the idea that coach wellbeing isn't separate from that performance. I think it sits under the performance because we we do we care a lot about player development, which is fantastic. That team culture, long-term performance, then I think we really need to hit the nail on the head and and care about the well-being of those people leading the environments. But coming back to what you were saying just now, this kind of answers that question as well. I think it's not about making coaching soft, I think it's making it more sustainable.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Yeah, I I I think that's a really important phrase. I I don't think this stuff is soft at all. And and and even the and even and that's a big one for rugby because the when we're talking about these sort of softer skills, they're not soft at all. These are actually the harder skills to uh perfect, and you will never perfect them, you you'll just be able to grow yourself that little bit better all the time, right? And that's a big shift from potentially previous generations around this stuff. And certainly chatting to a lot of older coaches these days, the good ones have been aware that you just can't stay in the old way. If you want to be relevant and present in the modern coaching world, this is the shift that has to take. And it's a good shift, it's a fantastic shift. And some of the more experienced coaches that I know who are further down the track, 60, 70 years old, that they are just the examples of how you mold your coaching and change and and tack when needed, when the situation and society asks for it, you're able to. And this is what's happening now. What your research is showing is sort of articulating what the general consensus is feeling underneath, right? Like it's w well, it is. This is all the all the feedback you've got. And from a more subjective measure, I can feel it on the like I I look after 54 coaches and I can feel this sentiment is so true. Like just gut feel of it. I can the little conversations I have is it's important. Just just on what you're saying there, I think just uh another little tweak that I quite like is w when you're not in good space yourself, it's really hard to be the best coach you can be because the lens that you're watching everything through is distorted. It's it's if you've got pressure and you're feeling average and a bit antsy, then everything that comes your way is filtered through that lens. So then you antsy at whatever that person said, and that person said, and someone comes to you with a genuine question, and you take it as a negative, because you're in that headspace. That's the lens you're looking at, and then the answer you give is maybe a little bit sarcastic or short or blunt and not delivered particularly well because of the lens which is clouding your mentality and your being. And so this is where you don't become your best coach. And so what you need is some s someone or something to be able to just snap you out of that to just blow those clouds away, so you can actually take everything with at best just a neutral perspective. Someone's coming to me with this, okay, that's a good question. I can answer that like this, rather than going, oh, I'm not another person coming at me with X, Y, and Z and beat it, go away. I'm sick and tired of people coming to me with complaints. But you're the coach, yeah, but and then that starts that whole chain, and then the grumpy coach or that becomes the norm, which isn't is not the best way. It's it's uh way, but it's definitely not the best way, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Yeah, 100%. I think that's why you have good people around you, then I think, Ben, so they know you.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

I think that's due, is probably having good people around you is probably one of the coaching gifts you can do. And if you're in a role, and and I I'll I'll give an example here. I was privileged enough to have Steve Hansen as my director of rugby for a number of years. And having someone like that where when I was going through a bit of a swirl and I did have that psychological safety with him, I'd say, mate, I'm just struggling with this. I've made these couple of decisions and uh I'm getting a bit of pushback here, what do you reckon? And in a in a way that only he could do, he goes, No, no, this the decisions sound, yeah, there'll be a bit of friction there, but it'll come right, always does. And then bang, you're out of the uh you're out of that swirl because some you had someone good there and whatever level you're at. And with I've done it once before in amateur club coaching where I just got an an old club store walk to come and be uh the kit man of our team. And for the same reason, he just had good rapport, good head on his shoulders, and he was my go-to guy. And that sometimes I'd be like, Sean, what do you reckon the team's going through now? Do you reckon they're enjoying what what's been delivered? And he goes, They are, mate, that they're expressing it a bit different. And and then all of a sudden it just goes, Okay, cool, boom. I had that person to just vent and blow those clouds away. Then my lens was better to be able to be neutral at best. Uh so I think wherever you're coaching, to have that sort of person like you talked about that you can just go to, someone you trust in the environment. If you haven't got one, bring someone in. And to be off on

Mentors And Trusted Sounding Boards

SPEAKER_01 33:15

to be honest, mate, like a lot of a lot of people love being asked into an environment, like someone that's maybe retired or has links to the club, to just say, come on and just come in on a Tuesday night and just just love your overview. And then end the session, you just say, What'd you see? What was good, and what do you think about this that I'm doing? And it it geez, it it makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Yeah, massive. I totally agree with you, and obviously not a lot of people have that luxury, but uh like you said, even if it's the uh the old stall walk uh on the committee and the grassroots team, give them that kind of role, give them that kind of self-importance as well, but also adds value to the club and and and the environment. Uh, but obviously for the professional games, I think definitely you need to have peer support with coaches and mentors and things. I think that would be that would be an ideal world, wouldn't it? It would be.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

And and mate, when you're doing this book, has there been any surprises along the way? Like anything that's that's jumped out, you're like, ooh, I that that's that's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

I think the the main thing is that we we we when we spoke about it, I think it was more uh a lot of the work-life balance and the kind of the switching off element of it. You know, they found it very difficult, didn't they? You know, because coaches, it's coaches are very relational and you're coaching because you care. You know, you think you often think about players, you know, the selection conversations, maybe the performances, the mistakes, as you just alluded to there, you know, i is your training session, is your session planning hit in right, is it hitting the right note? Your future planning outside of the formal working hours, you know, people don't see the coaches after the training session because for many coaches the session might finish about eight, nine o'clock at night. But the coach doesn't stop there, they keep on going, they keep on going, and that just adds on to then the emotional labour we talked about earlier on. So it's it's just a continuous ongoing cycle where that whirlpool is swirling around constantly. It was interesting to find out how people were struggling with a work-life balance of family, switching off, what they did to switch off, how they managed to do that. A lot of people were really good at it. A lot of people just said, nah, we just work harder and crack on. I was really surprised at that.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Surprised that how many people really had that that struggle to to maintain a reasonable family life?

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Yeah, yeah, that was myself. Um, you know, you start coaching, you always think, oh, you know, professional coaching must be the ideal world, you know. But then speaking to some people, I'm like, wow, it's been a bit of an eye-opener into the amount of time that's spent, which it needs to be done to a degree maybe, but I think that it's just such a demand because they're not

Work Life Balance And Switching Off

SPEAKER_00 35:45

normal working hours. You don't turn up for a training day and like eight until four and then switch off for the night, it's just constant. But that work life balance really struck me quite hard because I think as we all know, Ben yourself, you know, you've probably got a couple of weeks off to go on a family vacation with your family over the throughout the whole year, whereas a normal person who works can take a week off and say, Right, I'm going away. And they can't do that when it's pre- in in the middle of the season.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Did anyone have any cool uh triggers or methods to actually switch off?

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Yeah, a few people usually just literally laptops down, phones down, and just sort of disappear to the into the wilderness for a couple of hours and a couple of days just to reset themselves. The usual things around people are talking about now these days a lot of people get into mindfulness, which is fantastic. Exercise, you know, jumping into those ice baths or jumping into the go for a C and just really disconnecting from the world and just probably the external noise, just to kind of get themselves back. And but what I did like is uh uh about 50% of people did mention, but I probably think a lot of people did did this a lot more. They they spent intentional time with their family to just have that connection to make them feel a person again, not just that 24-hour rugby coach with everything just swirling underheads.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Do you think it's dangerous if like if your identity becomes your job like that?

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Yes, especially when you're you've got that fantastic coaching role in uh a different country where you're away from your family from such a long time and you're potentially in a couple of people mentioned that they could be in university digs for the whole year, um, and it's you know that isolation becomes something else, and then the constant swirling in the head, the noise just gets louder and louder, and unfortunately that leads to certain bad habits and certain issues where unless you sort of nip that in the buds, you can be walking down a really dangerous path. Um, but it just shows how bad isolation is and what can happen to you because just the reality of it, and I was I was shocked because it popped up quite a lot.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

Yeah. I remember I know Tony Brown uh has a great squash is his outlet because he's he's very good on is very analytical, but then he has this wonderful balance where he plays a lot of squash, and part of the reason for the squash is it's it's that exercise you talked about, but it's also his it it it flicks him into a completely diff different way of thinking. Like he is not thinking of rugby whatsoever when he's on the squash court. It's fast, it's it's hectic, it's and he loves it and he can play and he books himself in all the time, it's good for you. He gets his competitive thing, uh juices flying. But finding something like like a physical outlet is often a really useful thing to have, right? Like whether that's the gym or something like squash or whatever it is. Not so much well, the physical is important because it helps shape the mental, but it that that is the big thing, the being able to switch right off. So if you're if you're swimming laps and all you're doing is thinking about uh the next line out move, then it's not actually it's not you're not getting banged for your buck in in terms of the exercise. So you've probably got to find something which uh which makes you physically uh sharp and mentally switch right off. And and I think that's that's the one.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Yeah, that's I think that was the main sort of thread because a lot of people realize how much weight they were putting on when they were when they were living away from family because they were either eating too much, less ac exercise, because when they finished their day, they had no one to go back to, so they just literally sat there and opened the laptop back up and just continued working. Yeah, healthy well-being, body and mind is um you know, it's hand in hand, really, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Well it's actually interesting you talk about the weight gain because it's a very common trait for coaches, right? Like the weight gain is a common thing, and maybe a part of it is too because you feel like you're actually tired after a session, but you haven't actually done much. You've just been on your feet and uh for a couple of hours. So you don't really feel like doing exercise yourself. However, you you need to be aware that just standing around out in the field isn't actually doing a heck of a lot. So you've probably got to put in something beforehand or push yourself to do something after if you can.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Yeah, and I think you hit the hit the nail on the head that I think it's more mentally exhausting and stressful than and when it when it gets to the point where you've got an hour or two of I'm not gonna go to the gym, I just need to sit down and just do something else. So I I totally understand that. Totally understand that.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Well, a lot a lot of coaches in that sort of pro space, uh, when you've got gyms accessible, they do it before everyone gets in. I know certainly a lot of environments I've been in, all the coaches are in at the crack of dawn before the players are even in the building, because everybody knows at the end of the day you're gonna be gassed because of that mental uh feeling. So let's get it in before, start the day off right. Start the way off with the intention that you should want to progress it with and get yourself right first. And that's a good little philosophy uh every morning. So get your routines, whether that's the what you eat, uh you connect with your loved ones, the physical exertion you do, even the mental mindfulness that you talked about, start off with that so it flows on for the rest of the day, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:46

And I think that'll set a really good culture and um and a safe environment then as well, because you've got that closeness, you know, you you know how to speak to each other, the language comes in, you know, everything is set, and then you've got a good little basis there for uh that psychological safety. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

And it also sets a great example for even if people don't see it, uh the ripples that it's been done does spread. And that is the example as a coach, you want your players to have that sort of intention around themselves, and you lead that by example. So it's yeah, it is helping, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Oh, 100%. I think like you said, uh things don't go unnoticed in in in Volume Sector.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Mate, I love it. Now, mate, with if we're talking, mate, if if you had to uh sum up the the key message from your book for coaches, how would

Routines That Protect Performance

SPEAKER_01 41:35

you sum that up, mate? How would what would be the the the the the big one walk away that you would give them from the research that's come from the invisible load?

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Yeah, okay, like I said, you know, the the the book I've written and the research is is it's really about the hidden side of coaching, really. And people see the coach on the sideline, they see the section, the selection of the team, and they talk about the results. But like we said before, it's they they're not seeing that sort of uh what the coaches carrying. So for me it's the research came clear, the coaches are coming back to what we said before, um that emotional shock absorber. We need to make sure that they look after themselves really because the the key themes that came through um for for the whole of it was you know understanding that organizational support, you know, and identifying well that invisible load and how you're gonna deal with that yourself. That work like balance and switching off. We just spoke about managing your emotional labour and trying to how how can you get around that confidentiality and trust within your environment and you know coach well-being and performance, as I said, it's not separate from the performance, I think it sits underneath the performance. So realistically, it's everything we've talked about. We need to understand that there's lots of things out there to look into ourselves because not everyone's the same at all, and we need to make sure that um coaches get that support and it needs to be formal rather than informal.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Yeah, man. Mate, Stu, it's it's such good work you're doing, mate. Like and shedding light and awareness on this side of things is just just important, mate. It's important for a lot of people. Stu, wow, here's a question uh to finish up with on this podcast, and I'm trying to just tweak it now for you. What what what what is one thing that you agree that you believe in around the wellness side of coaching that you agree with, but you think others may not agree with?

SPEAKER_00 43:37

I think it's coming back to what we've already spoken about. Um I'm very uh everyone's different, Ben, as you well know. Um very much that open person who will speak to people about ongoing issues or things I don't think that sit right. And sometimes that doesn't sit right with other people because of a culture or because of how they they are individually, or as a collective environment. So I think it's personally people need to be strong enough to and be confident enough to explain what's going on with them. Because if there's something going on personally, then the organization and everyone around you needs to dig in and help you out. So I think it's being open, honest, have that honest conversation about how we support each other. Um, you know, this isn't about blame, it's about awareness, it's about that responsibility and building healthier, sustainable coaching environments rather than going back to the dark, archaic ages of man up and get on with the love that just deal with it head on.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Jerry Edwards, thank you so much, mate, for coming on the podcast. I'm just gonna give a real quick summation of this this awesome chat, mate, uh, and three key points which I think I just want to ri bring people back to, and and they are these. Number one is that people don't see the emotional weight behind the role of coaching, the general public and the emotional labor that's involved in it. So, as a coach, it is important that you create uh and raise it in your environments and be comfortable enough and brave enough to get it out there. This is what you expect, this is what you hope for, and try make some of these informal and inconsistent support um networks more consistent and more formal. And I think that's that's a a job and a role that you can take on if you're brave enough. Number two, this phrasing that understand coaches want understanding, not sympathy. I really love that, mate. I love that the research has sort of highlighted that. And for coaches, to get that understanding is to be able to speak without fear, to be brave enough with that psychological safety to say the things that uh are are bugging you or and create that understanding. And I think that goes a long way to actually soothing and dyeing down some of that swirl that's going on in your head. And number three, talking about the swirl that goes on in your head is actually work towards having a sounding board that you trust and use regularly. That could be a fellow coach, that could be a friend or an old person coming into the environment regularly, whoever it is, a kit man, for example, or kit woman, someone that's there

Three Takeaways And The Book

SPEAKER_01 46:05

that you can just vent what you're feeling and have a trusted voice and a trusted pair of ears that listen, process, and help you get out of the squirrel you're in. Because sometimes, and often as a coach, you can't see the wood from the trees, and you need someone that can. Stu Edwards, what an absolute pleasure, mate. And the book, The Invisible Load, is out now on Amazon, and I encourage all coaches and leaders to go and grab it, and it talks about the pressure, the stress, the well-being, about sustainable coaching in rugby. And you could cross out rugby and say any sport or any business or any relationship exercise. The invisible load is there all the time. So on Amazon now, go grab it, and uh it's an important thing to support. And I know that your work is is now being picked up by a lot of people, mate, from the highest echelons of the game and now taking you on, mate. So that's really exciting, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Yeah, it's 100%. It's uh it's gained the momentum I wanted, it's sparked that conversation. Yeah, let's keep it going and uh let's make some noise and make sure that people really get the support they need.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Yeah, man. I'll hope although this is we've got a great community behind this podcast, mate, and I'm sure they'll absolutely get behind the amazing stuff that you're doing. Pursue we do it's the invisible load on Amazon now.