Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Newington College GPS Champions | Inside the Program
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A championship season can tempt coaches to talk only about tactics, but the real story sits in the spaces between school, sport, and growing up. We sit down with Tim Rapp, head coach of Newington College First XV and Australia U16 head coach, to unpack how a winning schoolboy rugby program is built on values, relationships, and the daily experience players have when they arrive at 3:40 pm carrying the rest of life on their shoulders.
We get practical about coaching culture: why “the last classroom of the day” matters, how your tone can either pull kids back into the game or push them out of sport, and why turning corrections into questions often lands better than a lecture. Tim shares how he balances high standards with empathy, the five to one approach to positive versus corrective feedback, and the reality that players need boundaries they can explore inside.
We also break down how Newington’s “All In” theme evolved from a simple idea into a school-wide connection point through poker chips, service, and recognition that reached well beyond the First XV. Along the way, we talk leadership, delegation, and building an environment where assistants can grow into bigger coaching pathways too. If you care about youth sports coaching, school rugby culture, player development, and keeping teenagers in sport, this conversation is a blueprint.
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Championship Season And Guest Intro
SPEAKER_00We overcoach stuff too much. It's just a really simple game, and and sometimes it's a it's an age-old saying, but coaches sort of kill that, don't get me wrong again. I lose I lose my stuff sometimes. But if I can get it into a question for them, then they understand I'm not the controller of all. Let someone else do it. Sometimes people are on the accelerator, right? So the sooner you get there, the sooner you lose. And there's too many kids who are leaving sport in general because they're not having those positive experiences or enjoying it or getting that feeling of someone wanting to pull them back into the game again. That's not good for society.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been herring, I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Tim Rapp, head coach of the Newington College First 15, who are the newly appointed GPS Sydney rugby champions. An outstanding season to vote. Tim has been a player at every level of school and age group rugby all the way through to the Australian's National Seventh side and Waratar Super Rugby side. As a coach, he too has coached every age group national side and currently Australia under 16 head coach. He is and has been a head coach, a national head coach, a director of rugby, a general manager of the Waratars, one of the broadest rugby TVs, and particularly in the Australian pathway space. For the last two seasons, we have shared an office as I am the director of rugby of Newington College, and what a pleasure it has been. As of the weekend, Newington College, GPS Champions in Sydney. Tim Rapp, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for having me, Benny. That's um well researched, I reckon. You did well there.
SPEAKER_02Hey, fantastic. Well, mate. When you sit next to someone for a couple of years, mate, you s you get to know people pretty well. I won't put in the other stuff that I know that's a good idea. That's a little bit better stuff. That wouldn't that wouldn't be good. But mate, how good? Congratulations first up, mate. Well, GPS Champions, which is just super, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, mate, it is. It is a little bit of a um you sit back and smile, don't you? You watch these boys. I mean, we do it every year with a different crew, but you watch these boys uh go across the year. Admittedly, the competition in the GPS in Sydney is 10 games. Like, that's not a lot of footy. Um, home and away. It's not a lot of footy, but it feels like it goes forever because it's just living every minute of every day with these kids and and and and in a school environment, they're they all want to perform, but not always in control of that performance. So it's been really good. I still reckon they can they've got a bit of growth in them to to fulfil their potential and and have a genuine crack at how good they are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I can't but mate, it's it's it's awesome to see. Yeah, it it it's amazing to think too, you're right, it's only a 10-season season, but it goes on for a long time. The the the work some of the the young men put in post over the summer in the in the term one, because we we play term two and three, is actually a lot, isn't it? It's a big it's a big investment in themselves, isn't it, as rugby players here at a a school like this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is, it is. Look, I I didn't grow up in the in the private school system in Sydney, so I I probably don't appreciate it as much as the boys who have been through the system. Playing first 15 for your school in GPS competition is pretty special for for everyone involved. Karen's families, old boys, the boy himself. It is important and it's special for them. You've got to give it that respect too, right? But uh it's a it's a long season because we we also have a bit of rep rugby in there as well for some kids, and then if you don't make those rep teams, well you you sort of almost do three weeks with or four weeks with without footy, and then you're asked to come back and punch out another four games. So it's a different experience for everyone, whether you're an Australian schoolboy potentially or at that level to the boy who's trying his best to make the first 15 each week. It's such a different perspective and experience for those guys.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Do you want to put a little bit of perspective? Because this is quite a global audience we have here. What what is the GPS competition in Sydney, Australia? What is the sort of the background of it and why is it so prestigious and why is it such a big thing for any team to win?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, well, my history's not great, mate, but look, look, and again the GPS system is the reality of it is it it history has shown that GPS schooling systems in Sydney and also in Brisbane, obviously, in particular, have been large producers of wallabies over time or state representatives and stuff like that. So they've got a really good system around the level of competition these games are played at is top end in regards to schoolboy footing. There's a lot of emphasis on it, as you said before. Um boys love it, the schools love it. There is a level of prestige, obviously, um amongst it. For some kids, like anyone who's turning 17, 18, you finish school and potentially that's the last time you've actually played the game, moving into work or whatever, in these sorts of environments, yeah, it they they produce some really good footballers, both rugby league and rugby union in in New South Wales and Queensland. Um and and it is a prestigious competition that has great history over time, that these guys are all a part of, I suppose. And now for us going in to win a competition, these boys' names will be etched in history. Um and Newington hasn't been fantastic over time. They're not a
Why GPS Rugby Feels Electric
SPEAKER_00St. Joseph's College who are consistent around their performances at the top end and and winning competitions and and rugby's inbred into their system. Newington's a little bit different like that. So for our guys, it's a really wonderful piece.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it is it is different, isn't it? Like Newington has a very rich uh rugby history. For those that don't know, it's it's been going for 163 years. Newington College, 1863, it started up and played one of the first games of rugby in Australia between uh Newington College and Sydney uni way back when. And it's it's a ma amazing, it's just a bit of background on Newington. It's inner west, in the city, but it's got three beautiful fields. When you walk into the environment, it's just beautifully manicured gardens. It's the this the scene is absolutely wonderful. 1,500 students at the school, uh ranging from age 13 to up to 18, first 15, hasn't won the GPS prior to this year for for 11 years. And so it makes it really special. And what we've seen over the last couple of weeks is just the support this this school gets. Like, there's 15,000 people on the last day where we won the competition, and there's food trucks, there's festivals, there's bouncy castles set up, uh what the school does to celebrate the the rugby is actually pretty special. The the setting is one of the best settings I've ever been involved with. In fact, I've actually said to someone previously if Super Rugby could bottle what the GPS does with its rugby week to week, where the games are high in energy, the intensity's there, the crowd supports there, the the all the old boys and old students of the school come out of the woodwork. It's it's just a joyous celebration of of the sport, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Mate, you you're 100% right. I think look, and this is a funny comment when we're speaking on a coaching podcast, right? The reality of it is in my mind, 16, 17, 18-year-old boys is where everything's just going on. They're playing rugby, and and of course we try and coach sections of the game for them to have a blueprint, I suppose, to go out and do it. But these kids have also still got that level of, you know what, let's just have a crack. Or um, I've you know, something pops into my brain and it's like, this is the right option. Holy duly, sometimes terribly wrong option, but they're gonna do it anyway. And I think there's still that element of uncontrol, which is awesome, that people come and watch and go, you know, these kids are just actually playing rugby because they love it, and they're gonna give it a crack. So, I mean, you see scores like we're getting this year, 38-35. We employing defense coaches or not. My challenge is um you've got to go, well, that's sort of what they are, and that's why we love, I suppose, watching this level of footy so much. It's an absolute coach killer, but probably coaches are killing what these guys do after school, too, you know. Like, that's probably a taboo saying, but we overcoach stuff too much. It's just a really simple game, and and sometimes it's a it's an age old saying, but coaches sort of kill that a bit.
SPEAKER_02You're actually right, mate. Like, and and this this this team this year has been a great example of that. They have the inherent joy for playing the game, and they're sort of uh un unfiltered yet. They haven't had things put in place, restrictions and all that stuff. They're just playing the game, and they're just everything's an attack. Like, sometimes we wonder if if in all the teams kicking is sort of the the last default option where we run it from everywhere, and as a result, we do have those games. I think one game this year was 50 to 45, and it was just joy just to win on the buzzer with that sort of score line, and it's so refreshing, and and and that's the cool thing about this age group where you're actually just letting it roll and just putting those little tweaks. Would you do that again? Just that little bit of education rather than once you get to the next level, it's this different sorts of pressures come in. You feel like you've got to play it a certain way and you've got to fit a mould. It's very different once you move on from the school age, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, correct, mate.
SPEAKER_02Now, this year, Timothy, is is been a good year, obviously. We're being the champion. So it's a cool concept now to sort of shed a bit a little insight to how well we've done it, I guess, and and how Newington has had a cracker year, and just dive into a little bit deeper, just for the coaches that are coaching school ages, can sort of see some of the stuff we did, for better or worse, and just a little bit of insight. So I'd love to start with before we get to what we did on field and some of the cultural things we did as a as a first 15 team, I think it's important to start with just you know what the off-season looked like. And one of the things we did, which I think is a really cool thing for coaches to hear, is that this bigger alignment piece where we actually got together as a wider group where we got the the the you know the leadership of school who who aren't necessarily rugby people, and we all got together over a couple of days and we just reviewed where we want to go to and how we can align
Stop Overcoaching Let Them Play
SPEAKER_02rugby with with the school. And from that, those awesome couple of days, we we created the values that we all thought were important, and then we you know embraced the Newington Citizen, which is a a a leadership statement the school has, and we worked out how we can put some of these things and really double down on them inside the rugby piece as well. So one of the statements that w we talk about is we're we're not a rugby school, we're a school that plays rugby. And I think that's a really important piece for schools. So that kind of says to me that we value rugby really highly, but we also value the fact that this is a school, and we're here for academics at first and foremost, and to be a student. Do you want to just elaborate on sort of that concept and and why it's important as a schoolboy coach and a school like Newington that we're we're a student first, we're a Newington citizen first. Why is that important first and foremost?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, as I agree with you, Benny, that that process was good. And I think, you know, in all environments, you sort of go through that strategic development and and um you know set your values and then how do you live them? All that well, what does it look like across a whole school and how do we pull that back into your sport, whether it be rugby or football or whatever? Think the thing that we got right around that this year, mate, is the the live part. How do we live those values? And it's gotta be yes, I can do this when I'm in the rugby program from a staff and a student point of view, but then we want those boys from a rugby perspective to actually live them across the school. So, whatever you we expect you boys to do, and you agree to this about this is how our football field training or game should look like with our values and our behaviours. We really challenged our guys, not only students, but the staff as well, to actually live that across the school. So our training field shouldn't be any different to what you are like in the classroom or what you are like in uh walking around the school, interacting with other teachers or the headmaster or or a lot of the other young boys in our rugby program in particular, because you're role modelling there, but also across the other sports. So I think that sort of stuff with this group of boys, and they're and they are a special group of kids, they've got that right. The living piece external to just what I do on the football field because and you said it there at the start, mate. These boys are footballers between you know 3 15 and 5 o'clock on a Saturday and and and 3 40 and 5 o'clock through the week in the afternoons. There's so much more to the boy than just being a footballer. And it's been a grind at times, you have to sort of pull boys back in. I think they've really appreciated and understood that there is so much more to being a good person uh around the school in particular, but it also is an advocacy for our rugby if we've got a consistency amongst our boys being that way.
SPEAKER_02And I think you make a good point, mate, from the time when the school finishes and we start training, it's it's actually the last classroom of the day, I heard someone say, and I think it's a lovely thing. And and the context is different from a normal classroom, and the lessons we're teaching, whilst there is a bit about the X's and O's of the game, that's quite a bit, we're also teaching a resilience piece. Uh, because rugby offers sort of a context, which is things like it's a physical game, it's a combat contact sport, and the things that arise there are different from the learnings you get anywhere else in life. You're being your body, your mind is being pushed in different ways. You're reacting to someone clocking you with a good tackle and to regulate your emotions and all this stuff. And I think this is the the joy of this sport, and particularly at this age, because as we said earlier, these guys are out there, young men are going having a crack and they're doing it, and they're learning about when someone gives them a nudge, their first reaction might be to react in a way. But then over the course of a season, we sort of have the ability to say, Hey mate, when when you get hit this way, that reaction's probably not where we want to go. And here's how you modify your emotions and regulate yourself and the red head to turn it into blue, and that's not an instant process. That is this is what the sport gives you. It gives you those that exposure, that experience to be able to practice these things and learn from it. And sometimes I think in schools we sometimes expect young men and young women to be able to do this, but when we take it back to this is a classroom and it's a learning process, just like anything else, you don't start with your year 12 calculus and expect your year seven students to do it. It's a process going along the way, and the the more gentler and understanding you can be as a coach to help
Values That Travel Beyond The Field
SPEAKER_02with that, it makes that last classroom of the day super special, I reckon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Benny, I I reckon you bang on there. And I think the other real learning, I reckon, definitely for myself this year, that I've probably got right than wrong than I have in the past is understanding that you don't know what that boy's gone through throughout that day before he gets to you at 340. Now he could have, who knows, the dog could have been hit on the way by a car on the way to school, he's carrying that emotion. He's just got a bad result in one of his maths classes or his English English classes, he's he's carrying that emotion. Things you don't know what's like at home, you don't know if there's a girlfriend on the scene and that hasn't been going great. But then when they get to 340, you're you've got you've got that audience that you have to look after. I think there's there's there's a guy I follow, Ben Crow or Mojo Crow, who he's got a really good saying, um, be the best part of someone else's day. And I sort of this year amongst our coaching staff, we've tried to really embed that into us as as our staff, in the fact that we don't know what that boy's done through the days, but he's with us now. And let's make sure that experience of coaching on the field with his teammates is gonna be that best part of his day. And if we can nail that as tough as it is tongue, because everyone's different personality-wise, which have got some wrong, don't get me, don't get me wrong there, pl plenty of times. But I think we've managed that pretty well this year around treating each each person individually when they get in our classroom, which is the grass, but just making sure that that session is probably they've got something better or they've improved themselves or they've got a release. I reckon that part we've done well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, having having seen those trainings, I agree. Like it's it's it's the the trap you I you've never fallen into, but all the sessions are joyous, aren't they? Where the players are out there wanting to be there, enjoying themselves. And it's the way you talk to young players, right? That you you don't want it to be a strict classroom environment, do you? Nah.
SPEAKER_00Nah. No, a hundred percent. I mean, look, and and say it there before sometimes I've got it genuinely wrong, you know. The kid you think you probably need to kick up the bum a little bit, but he actually needs a cuddle. Uh and then and you almost like my personality goes, no, I need to have high standards and and and maintain them up there. But today this kid just doesn't need that. Getting that equation done really, really quickly as he's coming at you or you're going at them, the more of them you get right, I reckon, as a it makes that kid want to come back. Um and and it could be a completely different person the next time you see him, so you're starting all over again. But um, yeah, they love food. We want them to stay in rugby post school, right? That's the big piece. Sure, we want to win a competition and stuff like that and get better, but we want them staying in the game. And there's too many kids who are leaving sport in general because they're not having those positive experiences or enjoying it or getting that feeling of someone wanting to pull them back into the game again. That's not good for society, right? So if we can just get someone going, you know, I'm gonna go and play fifth grade subbies at Barony Bay, awesome, it's good for you, man. That's what I want. I'm gonna be an administrator and help my mates because I'm no good at the game, or you know, whatever. If they're still playing or being involved in rugby with that or general in in team sports, I'm such an advocate for putting people into team sports, whatever it is. Because it's just a fantastic piece to society to post that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I mean, that that phrase there, you yeah, you provide an environment that makes a kid want to come back to the sport or come back to the next training. There's something powerful in that, isn't there? Like that that is the ultimate coaching, and particularly at this level, uh, schoolboy level or school girl level, school age level, because there's so much swirl in their head, they've got all sorts of thought thoughts going. If if our one thing that we can do as coaches at school age is ensure that they want to come back to the next level, the next training or the next week, then we're doing something right. And if we can get 80% of a of a wider program like that, we're going pretty well, aren't we? 100%, mate.
SPEAKER_00I think uh
Be The Best Part Of Their Day
SPEAKER_00as long as we keep in touch with the fact there is a bigger picture. And that's often tough because you just I just want to get this right, or I need that bloke, or potentially this guy's upsetting, or this girl's upsetting our environment. Instead of cutting it loose, also how do you wrap your arm around, bring it in, and get them to stay, but then also be aware of what behaviors or feelings or or or language is is driving them away. If we can fix those little bits along the way, then you get the group closer together. I mean, we've gone in and had our last training session there last night. The boys, 90% of the boys had an exam that finished at four o'clock. Our training normally starts at 3 40. We just have to roll with that sort of stuff. Daylight's dropping down, you you push for time, but ultimately we just needed every boy on the grass at some point in time together. And and and and it was a short period of time for your last session of the year going into a game that's potentially, you know, you're gonna win the competition outright. We probably didn't get enough time on the grass together in that last session. But I think in review, the time spent together in that section was the really big piece. Not so much what we did in it.
SPEAKER_02You just said something there, which I think is a powerful one for coaches just to remember. You talked about what language drives what language drives people away. And I think that's a really massive one for coaches just to be aware of like your language, and not even just your language, but sometimes the tone of your language can actually drive people away from A, the sport, B, the team, B yourself as a coach. It's something to be really aware of, particularly in a school setting where you're speaking, you're you're speaking to people that really want to be there. They're choosing to do this co-curricular activity because they love it. That's not always the case in every subject in school. Sometimes you you have to do your compulsory subjects, and sometimes as students, you just turn up to those ones because you have to and you begrudgingly get through it and just do the job. But with the sport on the whole, you're choosing it because you want it. The last thing we want to do as coaches is have our language drive people away from the game and the team and you as a coach, right? Bang on. Bang on that. Yeah, I I I I when we first when I first got to school, I remember talking to the rugby coaches and just talking about a five to one ratio. And I think it's a good one for all coaches, like five positive comments to every sort of one really constructive comment. And I think it's a really important one just to assess yourselves on. I know a number of coaches at school, when they started counting on their fingers how many positive to negative comments they were saying, it actually sort of surprised them how you got into the Habit of always critiquing,
Language That Pulls Players Back
SPEAKER_02always seeing the negative and stuff. But when you had a ratio of five to one where you had to say five positive things to every one negative thing, it actually made you count and realize, well, I'm just looking for the negative here. I'm just looking for the mistakes and trying to correct the whole time. Whereas your language is important. If you're uh embracing the behaviors you want to see, that was awesome, well done, love the way your hands went to target. That's the example, that's the exemplar, keep that up. Then you're creating language which actually keeps people in it. And I think that's a massive one for this age group because they're highly uh they're not quite sure themselves. They're still learning, they're developing brains, they're not really sure which way they're gonna go. And your language can be massively important.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree with you there, Benny. And it's tough at times, right? I think in the back of my mind, I try and if I am feeling like I'm gonna have to delve into a little bit of hard, hard love here, I try and turn it into a question for them. Throw a question at them about it to make them understand a little bit, rather than running and raving it, and and don't get me wrong again, I lose I lose my stuff sometimes. But if I can get it into a question for them, then they understand. But it's not all it's also about making sure you just you still gotta hold high standards and hold them to account. I think that's where sometimes we get it mixed up in the fact that you can be positive around your feedback or correction or questioning, but you still gotta maintain high standards on on what you actually want. It's not just a cuddle all the time because we we're in a competitive environment and we're playing a competitive sport and we have high expectations. So we can't it's the agile thing with coaching boys or or teaching boys is give them the boundaries, let them find their own way in between those boundaries, but when they step over it, they they need to know. There needs to be a consequence. It doesn't have to be a massive one, but it just needs a reminder that this is not what we're doing right. Let's keep it up there, but stay in between those bars a little bit better. They seem to grow in that space, I reckon. Especially when they can make their own choices.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00They're not silly. They know where the edges are.
SPEAKER_01They know where the edges are, yeah. And you're the guy that's looking after those edges, right? Well, I think that's our job, man.
SPEAKER_00Like I want boys to be able to express themselves on the football field, whatever they're feeling, they're gonna throw out there with their teammates and have a go at it. But they also need to know that there is a space they have to work within. And that's our job. If we can keep those boys bouncing around and pushing the edges, we need them to push the edges for sure. But just give them a little reminder every now and again. I'm I'm I'm gonna keep you to a standard and I'm gonna also look after those edges for you. So you keep going upwards rather than outwards.
SPEAKER_02Ooh, I love that. Keep going upwards, not outwards. And it's a really important thing you just said. I I think it's not just a cuddle all the time. Uh and that's important, particularly in this sport too, because this is uh is a combat of sport, and and you want you need to push the edges because that's how you get better. You're driving the edges of things. And at this age, as we've talked about, these young men for us want to push the edges. And so that you're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna go over the edges at times. That that's how it has to be if you want to get better. You can't just stay in this middle band of pushing things. So we want young men to and women in this in other contexts in this sport to push the boundaries of how far they can go. And and when they go sideways, outwards, we we're the ones, as like a father at home. You want your father to be pulling you up if you're doing things which aren't coherent with you know going upwards, not outwards. Not always a cuddle. No. Not always a cuddle. And I I think the other aspect to this is you don't want it to always be a cuddle. Because you gotta you gotta go through life too. And as you go through life, you're not you're not gonna get cuddles all the time. There's gonna be times when you're gonna get strong words and strong expectations and things like that through whatever you're doing in life, and to have a little experience from something you love, like a rugby coach, to be able to just give you that different sort of push with a bit of something which is maybe a bit harsher than a cuddle is actually an important life lesson too, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, completely, mate. As you said, that that's that's the life we live in. You walk out of school gates and things change a little bit for you. End of the day, I love you, mate, but this is not what we want. And this isn't gonna help you. So you're gonna get some scars from this. 100% you'll get some scars, but use those scars as development, right? And they'll call back on it. You may not admit it, but you will call back on a scar every now and again and say, Well, I've been there before and it didn't work. So I'm I'm gonna straighten up a bit quicker.
SPEAKER_02There will be scars. Well, mate. 100%. There will be scars, scar tissues. Like in the gym, Rappy, that you have to uh rip your muscles, get a bit of scar tissue, and that's how you get stronger. And it's the same here.
SPEAKER_00Perfect analogy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, mate. That's what I do here, mate. Put it put put put analogies in.
SPEAKER_00I like it. It's good.
SPEAKER_02As a little side, way back when I was a player, I had Heineke Mayer as a coach. And uh I remember the first chat he said to us. He said, he walked in and he said to us all players, he said, I'm gonna treat you like I treat my children, firm but fair. And and I will show you the love, but I will be firm but fair. And I just thought it was a lovely summation of a really nice approach. He wasn't gonna he was gonna cuddle us at times, but he was also gonna be super firm when when needed to be, like any uh father worth of salt should be. And I just thought that was a lovely phrase from a guy that's done very well for himself in the coaching space.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, that I think it's bang on.
SPEAKER_02Now, mate, we when we're talking about uh things that happened this year with the with the Newington College team, just to give a little bit of insight to people, there's some lovely things done, mate, and I think it's cool that we can share it because schoolboy rugby and school school age rugby is very changeable in that mate, you lose the team at the end of the year. You don't get to keep them for six, seven, eight years. This year we lose most of the first 15, it's a whole new batch next year. So, mate, what's the process, mate, from let's just go back to the two years I've been here? One year we had one team and the next year we had a completely different team. And then at the start of the year we sat down, myself and yourself, and said, We might have to change the way we play based on what we're we're dealing with. And that is the reality, right, in school school programs that at the last year of school you've got these players, and you can see coming through the next year's team is gonna have to play a very different way because we've got a different set of players. It's and how did that process work, mate, in terms of shifting the way you coach that team?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it's a how do you explain it? You said it there pretty well at the start, right? Every year you're gonna have a couple of overlapping players, and you've from a program's perspective, you've got foundational skills that develop over time. And so you stick to a sort of this is the way we are as Newington as an example. This is our style, I suppose. But yeah, this year's group compared to last year's group was a massive change. We've got a big awful forward pack
Adapt The Game Plan With Players
SPEAKER_00who uh who've got beautiful skills this year, which was probably a level above the what it was last year, where last year's had an unbelievable attacking style and back line was red high. So the uh uh ultimate outcome is still the same. You want to score tries, win games, blah, blah, blah. But how you go about that um this year was different. And sitting down and getting other people's perspective of what you see. I think good for myself this year to sit down with a variety of different coaches and just ask, what do you see? What do you think these boys are gonna be like in this year? Where do you think their strengths are? And then actually sitting down with some of those key boys in particular and asking them, because I generally reckon, I mean, this is probably a little bit of a random statement, but you could ultimat ultimately go to their boys this year at the start of the season and say, pick a team for me. You boys pick the team, one to 15, what do you reckon? And it would be pretty close to actually what it is right now, I think. They know, and they're their mates as well, right? So they know how they can play, they know their strengths. The hard part's getting it out of them. Getting them to actually admit, you know, take take the barriers off and actually say, Well, this is what's good about us, this is what I like about my teammate, this is what's not good about our teammate, or this guy's really good in this position because getting that information out of the boys, because it's all in there, they've played together for the last, you know, six to four years. They know who they're playing against. Getting that information out of those boys, and and I think that's what we got right this year. Those guys were very open about themselves and their mates, which helped us then sculpt the style of play that fitted them to fit also still part of New Internet.
SPEAKER_02Mate, I you did that really well this year, I I believe, that asking the boys, which is it sounds a little bit off, and sometimes I'd imagine a lot of coaches might say they don't like that because that's they feel like that's the coaching job. But what you did beautifully this year, you did ask that. And this this particular group were very open around themselves and each other, and we're very accountable and responsible to say their piece. We had some wonderful leaders in that first 16 who talked very openly about themselves. And when you can do that, when you can acknowledge your strengths and weaknesses inside as an internal group, as a playing collective, and then you can have that sort of dialogue and conversation with the head coach around this is what we are, this is our strength, this is our weakness. It actually gives you a lot of scope to then be able to mould a game plan which is not just your game plan pressed on them, it's their game plan in conjunction with yourselves, and they feel part of it, they're tighter. And that that's I feel like the the way the team has played this year has been uh very much from the inside out as well as you know, coaching down. It's it's been a really level horizontal field, and it's because of those young men have been so open and and just wonderful, yeah, wonderful students and young men. It's it's been a privilege to work with them, mate.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maybe has. These guys are a really good group. I think when you look back on it, there's some moments throughout our our season and early on in the piece, look, we spoke there at the start of this chat about having our our speaking to our values and and then what are the behaviours of those values and how do you live them? When the I think when the students or the players or the kids, whatever you want to call them, whenever they see you living those exactly the same as they are, they buy in. Do you know? Like I can't just sit there and go, well, these are the values you blogs have got to live up to. We've got to do it too and live it as well. So I think that vulnerable piece is really important. These guys are impressionable age. Um, and and and we are a part of this group as much as they are student, teacher, coach, player. When they see their coaches being vulnerable, making mistakes, actually saying, I don't know. Let me come back to you with an answer to that one. I think that gives them a little bit more, it brings us a lot closer in regards to it's not just a coach player relationship. I think those little vulnerabilities and and seeing being open in the openly admitting with your failures across time as well, as the boys go, Well, he's he's a bloody person. Yeah. He's not he's not a coach, he's a person. And that that brings it a lot closer.
SPEAKER_02I think you're right, mate. That that is the word I've probably been searching for. The what we're dealing here at at school age is a very impressionable age. And I think the other one is for ourselves and positions like this, is as head coach and director of rugby to also acknowledge that we were once there as well. I and if we remember our time at that age, man, I was I was all over show and and I like to to to acknowledge that, right? And just be a little bit sympathetic and uh uh around what young people are going through at that age and not forget it, and not to think I'm high and mighty around it, but like to just understand that I was there too, and I actually remember my sort of you know unsureness and and having someone that can speak at a level and a tone and a language that just is that that is understanding, that knows, is once you feel that connection, man, it uh your impression of that person changes and you want to do more for them. And if they're saying stuff, they buy in more. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02And talking about buy-in, man, like one thing I did love this year, there's the theming that you put in place, and and that was in largely uh driven from the inside, the same sort of openness. We we had these poker chips. Do you want to explain this kind of kind of theming?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, sure. So our boy, I mean, everyone does it, right? Game model theming, that sort of stuff. Sometimes it's tokenism, sometimes and that's often when you don't get the buy-in, I reckon. Been there, done it, struggled, um, got it completely wrong, but it looked good, sort of stuff. These guys this year, I try and go to the boys or the some of the senior players within the group and just say, what do you want it to be? But this is genuinely not about me. Or the coaches. We're just here to help you try and achieve something this year. What's the thing amongst your peers and your your group of mates in the team? What's gonna what do you grab onto? You know, a lot of teams go around the NFL or or or basketball or stuff like that. A lot of those things that they they watch and they on their social media or on TV that the boys might grab a hold of. This year, for us, it it came out of the boys at the time were loving watching a series. Crimson University, I'm pretty sure it was around the all-in theme. Um, and that was the theme that we went with all in. But it it was firstly they were heading down this line of like the university or the the NFL team, but then it's just sort of morphed into a little bit more around the buy-in to all in, how do we get that? What is that where
All In Theme That Became A Movement
SPEAKER_00what what where else does that play? And you know, we've sort of come across this whole poker, not so much poker the game, but more so the symbolisation of putting all your chips in. You know, if we've all got a chip for our team, and these are the little poker chips that we've all got for the boys, but um if you're if you're gonna roll the dice, let's put it all in. Every moment at your chips in, we're either gonna fail massively and go home and walk home by ourselves, but um if we're gonna all throw in, let's do it all together and see what happens.
SPEAKER_02If you're gonna miss miss big miss together.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. And it's been awesome. It's been a ride, right? Some of the progressions of the all-in piece and and mate, some of it's luck, don't get me wrong. Personally, how we've evolved it, you know, engaging all these different levels that we've got now got the three chips, which I suppose we get into, but that wasn't a perfect plan. We've just sort of seen it take off a different tangent and then go, hang on, we're on to something here. Let's just keep pushing that a little bit harder. And it stuck. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, just a little bit of background on that. So the uh the cat I remember the the captain of the team made these chips, which all logoed up, and then on the on the opening luncheon, he he passed them out to the team and and and told the the story of why, and you had to have those chips on you at all times, and it was a little fun thing for the guys as well. But as it's progressed and morphed, this kind of all-in concept has been really amazing in that the the team is understanding the wider context as well. Like this, some of the stuff which I've really enjoyed as a director of rugby is the way the first 15 particularly has gone all on with the wider community. They've early in the season they went out there and coached uh the the associated primary schools in our region, and they turned up to a day and they coached the young kids. They're out there refereeing the young games before them in the morning, and a good chunk of the team have done multiple refereeing games at eight, nine o'clock in the morning before their 315 game. Uh the the the connection with the school has been awesome. They've got turned up and coached teams. One of the one of the players went and coached an under-14 team for the for the three weeks which he wasn't able to play. And it's just those sort of connection pieces, this all-in sort of nature. They weren't just all in on the their solo team. In this school, they were all in across the wider programme. And the ripples have been awesome. And and one of the things which we've done, I think, really well is we get the under-13s, we select players who then walk out side by side with their first 15 equivalent in their position, and they walk out in front of the whole school, side by side, 15 under 13 players, and the first 15 have embraced it and and and and and just it's gone and just morphed into this thing where it's now the tradition we do before games. And the feedback from the wider community, this is awesome. This is a place where we want to be because you know, those little interactions, this all-in, not just our team, but the whole program is has been enlightening, I reckon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I reckon there's two parts to that with this group in particular and why it's gone so well. The first piece is they just generally want to do it. Okay, you have to go and referee or go coach this time. Using a big stick doesn't work with these boys. They have generally want to gotta want to do it. And and to a majority of the group, they've actually wanted to do it. They've seen it as, yeah, yeah, that's cool. Or I'll do that for the greater good, not just because it's for me, but they actually have that mentality around, well, why not? Like, what's wrong if I if I do or I don't do it, if I do do it? And then someone else is doing it, like kids at this age, if someone else has do it, well, I might as well jump in too. And that sort of evolves and snowballs a little bit. But then I you go back to um like the whole change of how we walk out on game day, there's massive compliments that have got to go to those boys or those senior leaders within the group who have actually gone, what's the solution here? Like, this is not traditional what we do. We get that. Instead of kicking stones or blowing up and carrying on about it, okay, how do we make this work for ourselves or or how do we change something? You know, like people are scared of change, right? Full stop, that's human, that's human beings. But these boys have done a really good job at going, okay, that's not what we normally do, but we can change it to fit what we want to do. And I think that whole walk out with the year seven piece, like, how many people I would imagine for yourself, I know definitely they come to me, is oh, how do we get our boys to to be involved in that? Or can we do year six this week? You know, little things like that where these guys have created that through through trying to find a solution rather than sit there and whinch about the problem.
SPEAKER_02Yes, it's it's it's a it's a remarkable testament to to the new generation of young men. Um, and particularly this group is the is sort of the lightning rod for a lot of that. They they are that, mate. They're very solution focused. They're they're just okay, well, this is what's in front of us, that's how it is. What are we gonna do? And we're gonna do this. And it's done in such a positive, intentional way that is reflective of you know the wider school values. Newington College has has this wonderful leadership program in the school, which it's called the Newington Citizen, and they they instill from your yes seven all the way through just this concept of you know leadership and real leadership and service leadership around that. And what I reckon this what these young men are, having had a schooling age where they've developed these sort of skills, is just remarkable. And it's it it it it's it's new, it's fresh, it's enlightening, and it's the way forward for young men and women to go forward, this sort of resilience and finding solutions and not and being able to change, because that is the modern world, the world's changing, and and and some of our students that we teach are are going to be leading the way on showing the older generation of how we actually are able to change and change well and make it work. I think it's awesome. And and just to elaborate on this chip piece, mate, can I just dive into this little one that you came up with? And I and I just to flip it on the head, so this all-in concept and these little chips which the players had, you then flipped it towards the end of the year and you made up a whole lot of chips that said, We're all in. And you had a presentation to the team and said, I would like you to present this to someone that's made impact on your life, other than your parents. And this group really bought into that and they went out and they they went out through the whole school and they they took real care about who they gave their chip to. Then they got a photograph, and all those photographs went up on the wall, and they were giving it to all sorts of people who may or may not even have watched a game of rugby before. Like I know the groundsmen got one for some of their work, I know some of the maths teachers got some. Additional helpers around school got some. And what was just beautiful is the comments I got as director of rugby from all different walks of life around the school, feeding back to say how proud they were and and connected they felt to these young men that they took the time to say these words, give them a chip, take a photo, and all of a sudden, this all-in became not just the team, but it became not just the program, but it came this whole school. And it's just it's no surprise that the crowds we're getting, the support that's been driven through the school this year has has been magnified through little actions like this, and it's just such good human behaviour as it is, and and then what it does to an on-peel performance is just a bonus, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Benny, that was uh again one of those, I suppose, things where you it was going well. I reckon the chips were really good from a rugby perspective. Um and then and and then the second we have a gold chip, which is that we give to the man of the match that all the boys vote on each week. If if you get the man of the match and the player vote, then you get a gold man of the match chip. Um and I've just felt as we were we were cruising really well, but we uh we had the player, we had the program, but we we needed to go to the people as well. So we connect that that triangle which creates the best environment. So if your program and your players and your people are all connected, then you'll find that you get a great outcome, whatever it might be, or you're charging for. So the people part in my head was what was missing from us because there were at the boys that you look at the groundskeepers as an example. If that field is rubbish, boys don't want to play on it, it's not as as as as exciting. People are then going, well there's no seating or the environment's not great, actually go and watch it and so we're not going to watch. So they made a really big effort over time to to to get to get the dance floor that they're playing on special. You know? And it looked good and the boys wanted to be there. It's the agile thing, right? Look good, feel good. So they um that was a good piece for them. But then for our boys to actually acknowledge other people than themselves, I think that was a really really cool piece. Amongst these sorts of environments sometimes the rugby program can get a bit of a bad name because they're boys who just want to be there for footage. That's never the case. Sometimes in individuals but never from a program or a team's perspective. And I think these guys this year were really good advocates for kids who, yes, they play rugby but they're actually Newington students first list. And they were really good at sharing that. So we challenged them and again like they were sitting comfortably they were doing all right but when we went into that camp down at Newcastle University, I just wanted to work out how we could challenge them more to be just that little bit extra that that maybe that would throw back. And and look it was a it was a a risky well it wasn't risky but it was a bit of luck involved too right like I was going to throw I threw this at them that we ordered those chips last minute I spoke to a Zire probably the weekend said mate I've had this silly idea potentially but what do you reckon? And the captain goes well yeah I love it let's do it. So there was a last minute scramble to get these other chips in and what are we going to say on it and like all that you know it just rolled and we went with it. But the feeling I think the big piece is that that that feeling of connection the boys spoke this year about accountability. They spoke about uh connection and what was the last one they spoke about actually don't know three of them. We'll come back to that but but that that connection piece probably was something that we needed to reach out a bit harder. So so handing that getting the boys to go out and there was there's some vulnerability in that there were um there was emotional pieces from some boys because they had a genuine real good connection with a mentor or or or or something like that. There was some real emotional connection to it. And then there was also the boys who were probably not that emotionally outward types of guys who were very inward who had to actually go and go to someone think a bit deeper and go to go to someone it didn't have to be in the school but collectively it worked out that the majority of them were and actually share that feeling with someone else. And you had a you know you had teachers going what the hell is this? I don't I don't get this inform feedback from my students or I never knew I had that so for them to get that chip and then and then get the photo as well and then and then when we brought them all in together which I thought was really cool we got them into the change rooms and we showed them up on the wall that they're a part of it and they're sitting on that wall and this is how it connects player program people. Which wasn't the plan but you could just tell that the emotion was in the room and they were genuinely a part of it and they were acknowledged standing on the sidelines and in the hills just what sometimes they were just coming to watch. But now they almost felt like they had to because they were a part of what we were doing and that went through the roof. It was um really really cool.
SPEAKER_02Mate it was cool to watch and I I just love the little triangle that you keep referring to that player program people. I think that's really special made and one of the things I I do enjoy is it it wasn't tokenism as you referenced before it was actually the boys were in the players were in they were into this and and they just embraced and they took it on and they just okay this is a great idea and they just rolled it in one of the bits which I thought was the really the the how these little ripples go out is when the groundsmen got one of these chips they then on their own account went and spray painted the big all-in chip right outside where the the players run out and that was just them feeling part of it part of this program part of the people part part with the players and they just said this is a cool idea we're gonna add to we're gonna add to this thing this little thing that we can do with our skill sets and they went and spray painted all in just in a in a in a chip formation as as the players run out and that is that kind of buy-in that's not the this is not what you what you've done this year is not like this is what we're doing do it or else and it being like this this is this is organic and and and this is this is grown up from deep within and that's a lovely feeling man and the sentiment dries throughout a program is is really cool. Love that yeah one what one of the other things that we we with oh I get a lot of comments on is we do this other thing called the the team of the week and I think for all coaches listening at a school level I'll pick this up from Sean Graham up at uh Nudgy College who mentioned this was a good thing to do and I I I'd suggest this is cool for coaches is every week across our program we have 417 rugby players across the program and we pick our fifth 15 of the week and it's from all different teams from the 13C's to the 14 D's we just spread out and we might put the odd first 15 player in who's good has had a good week and it's not for anything other than what the coaches enjoyed about a player. So it could be that they just made a real effort or they improved a lot or they just showed a little bit of something and we announced that on a Monday we've put it out publicly and on on the newsletter I put out and they get a pair of grip socks they have they come up to the sports office. And for me this is a bigger piece that I think the last couple of years at Newington has has really created this ripple underneath where the younger players and and not just the the the very best players but all you know some of the players that are playing just for the enjoyment in the 14 D's or the 13 C's they feel connected to some of these other guys. And that they look up and they see that they're named in the same team as the first 15 captain and they just get a little bit of puff. They feel proud to be part of this bigger piece, this player program people idea and I just I I'd recommend for coaches that that's something at
Recognition Systems That Lift Everyone
SPEAKER_02a schoolboy level that we're doing really well and I think it's a it's a really easy one to take away and put in yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I'm a fan of it Benny I mean the beauty as you touched on that the beauty is that you're acknowledging people for effort things not just outcome based stuff. So yeah great try whatever but mate you're having a crack or you know you played a number of different positions this year or this weekend or mate you backed up two and three times and the levels above because you know someone got injured or wasn't there in time. Like they're all effort areas that everyone can do no matter whether you're playing first grade or you're playing sevens you can you can be marked on your effort and that can be at a first grade level even though you're playing sevens whatever it might be. That those little acknowledgments I think people feel a bit more. A lot or probably a lot this year about if it feels right if something feels good then why would you not keep doing it?
SPEAKER_02Mate I think that's exactly right mate that it would when you acknowledge the effort and behaviour you actually get the whole programme to buy and all 417 players can achieve that. They can't all achieve you know the rock star performance that the first 13 players have but they can all in their own way have great effort and great behaviours and what I love is when the very best rugby players at school love that and they support that and they give back and they mix and mingle with your players that are just playing for the sheer love of it it the the ripple that that sends to and our and our crew this year has been a great example of that and as a result those players playing in the sevenths or the 13th C's they show up to watch the very best in school on a Saturday too which is lovely. Now Tim Rapp's got to that time we're just gonna ask this last question man and and and it's this what do you believe about schoolboy rugby and you particularly because you've experienced almost every level of the game Australian schoolboys, Waratars coaching Australian schoolboys, director rugby head coach, GM What's something that you think about coaching and culture of rugby that you believe in that you think a lot of contemporaries of yours would perhaps disagree with tough eh I don't know people maybe they do agree maybe they don't agree disagree with what some of the stuff you do right I really I do really I really like that that piece around touch on it again trying to make um be the best part of someone else's day I think if we get you know chucking that into into into the way you coach I think I think as a coach over time understanding that the more you not make it about yourself is probably the better outcome for everyone else.
SPEAKER_00We we we're lucky we've got created an environment here Ken PZMA, yourself, Danyon Hill, Joel Wilson, Rue Wilson, you know we're very lucky and for myself as a head coach to be able to go I'm not the controller of all let someone else do it. Really happy for those folks to lead that you go away and sort out and tell me what's going on. It's not my final decision. I I think that's probably one of the biggest learnings for myself over time is that you can be a head coach and you can delegate and that's okay. And and and that's really cool because that's why you actually ask them to help you. You know and when they make a decision you go yeah I agree that's awesome let's go with that which could be completely opposite to what I'm thinking but we back that that's why you have a coaching group I think um sometimes as a head coach you feel you have to make the final decision on everything but actually being able to agree with and say no no no we're going with you passing that responsibility to someone else and being okay with it because ultimate outcome is you're the head coach and you're gonna be crucified potentially for it but having that trust in someone else helps them grow right and and then you go this is cool we've got a coaching environment I maybe have the head coach next to my name but all my coaches do a lot of coaching and they have a specialty in an area and I I want them to be special in that area. So go and do it. Don't be hindered
Delegation Coaching Pathways And Closing
SPEAKER_00by me.
SPEAKER_02I love it mate when you talk about um pathways and stuff as well it's like we talk about Campisi Mafu so at the end of season he announced in the change room after the last game after we've won the championship that he's himself has become the forwards coach for the Fiji Andra super rugby team and for for us as you as head coach and me a director of rugby that one of our coaches goes on to become a professional coach from this season. That is the joy uh not only we're not just promoting getting players to become better people and players but also the coaching environment too like one of our first 15 coaches has gone on to become a professional rugby he's a super rugby he can leave his profession yeah to the side and that is joyous isn't it as a as a head coach as a director rugby when one of your coaches not just your players goes on to excel and chase this dream and become something it's it's what we're all here for and it's testament to the program you're running that the coaches too we're getting top jaw coaches that have been headhunted for professional organisations and that that's he's such a great coach such a great man and and he loves this place and he's given his heart and soul and it's just beautiful to see that the pathway is not just for players it's for coaching and administration people as well it's it's fantastic isn't it oh mate I'm so stoked for um Campo such a lovely person full stop but for him to be able to now go along that pathway and challenge himself a little bit more and rip into that professional level that he's done as a player now he gets to do it as a coach but I think the big piece out of that is we've got a guy who 100% is passionate about coaching.
SPEAKER_00And it may seem externally to people oh well he's on accelerator you know like oh he was only there for a little while and now he's coaching super rugby but the stuff in behind that people don't see and this is often the case with coaching right mate he's done his hours he he is coached you know he's coaching his club team he's coaching his boys team he's done hours in doing one-on-ones with other people and down the park and he's done a bucket load of other stuff that people don't see around the coaching hours so they're just rewards for now going to super rugby there's a lot in behind why he's getting there it's not just because he he's had a bloody good season this year with us. He does a lot of other coaching that people don't see and I think that that there within a a a podcast like this is the learning sometimes people are on the accelerator right so the sooner you get there the sooner you leave. I love it mate.
SPEAKER_02Tim Rapp, what an absolute pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today. Before if I may I'd just like to sum up mate this awesome chat and this awesome reflection of the inside workings of Newington College on one of the most successful seasons that I've had in the last dozen years or so are these number one I love the stranger tool but you don't you don't know what a player has been through throughout the day. And that is really relevant at school there's so much going on in these young impressionable young people's lives that you need to be the best part of someone else's day and those that person is the player and student used there in front of them. And you're trying to create an environment where you want to make that kid come back again. And that's not making it about yourself as you said and I think that's a really important one for all coaches of schoolboy level and schoolgirl level to remember you don't know what that player that student has been through throughout their day. Number two, I love this concept we talked about what language drives people away and I think it's a really important one to remember we are the last classroom of the day in a schoolboy setting so we need to make sure we have that context in as well and the language we use the tone we use the way we say things to people can actually make mistak or can drive them away and you said a great little turn of phrase is turn things into a question. So it doesn't always need to be a cuddle it can be firm but fair but turn it into a question and you know get them to answer the standard that you think is important. And number three your reflection on this season was and what you did well was at the start you actually asked the boys about their strengths and weaknesses and had a really great group around who were open about themselves and each other and they were able to determine what their strengths and weaknesses were. And what it did was actually bought the team in it wasn't a hierarchy coached down it was even everyone felt like they bought in and you lived the values of that as well being vulnerable and acknowledging your strengths and weaknesses along the way and what this did was did not create a tokenism on the culture and on the theming it actually created a really big buy-in an all-in type mentality Tim Rapp what an outstanding season you have had as head coach of Newington College and there will be a lot of young men from that group particularly that go on to have stellar rugby careers and it's a pleasure that myself and yourself could be part of it. Thank you for joining me and sharing a little bit of insight to the Newington College first of thing.
SPEAKER_00Easy Benny thank you my the work